Written by Zack Gall

Data Analyst at ICO Alert
November 25 2018

Everything EOS #36: Gaming, VR, and EOS VC

Gaming and VR leading the path towards mass adoption and the latest EOS VC investment




 Peter Keay joins Rob Finch and Zack Gall to discuss Galaxy Digital’s latest EOS VC investment into Mythical Games. Learn more about the all star team behind Mythical and why they believe gaming and VR will be the driving force behind reaching critical mass adoption. The crew also recaps their experience at the EOS Hackathon and what they learned about what is yet to come for EOS.



Everything EOS is a podcast hosted by Rob Finch (Cypherglass) and Zack Gall (ICO Alert) that follows the EOS ecosystem: dApp spotlights, VC partnerships, announcements, and more!

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Pete: Welcome to episode 36-

Zack: Welcome, welcome.

Pete: ... of Everything EOS.

Zack: I'm Zack Gall, our in house EOS cheerleader here at ICO Alert, the trusted ICO discovery platform.

Rob: And I'm- Oh ...

Zack: Visit ICOalert.com, the most complete calendar of all active and upcoming ICOs and I'm being joined today with my Hackathon teammate and fellow ICO Alertian, Peter Keay.

Pete: Hey, hey what's up? I'm known as Bitgenstein on the webs.

Zack: Along with, as always, the founder and CEO of Block Producer Cypherglass, Rob Finch.

Rob: Thank you all so much for joining us for yet another episode of Everything EOS. We're going to kick it off. We have some exciting news that you probably saw on Twitter, but we're going to break it all down and tell you what it means in just a sec.

Rob: Before we get started, I just wanted to thank you all so much for continuing to leave those positive comments on the videos and on the podcast that we do. It means a ton to us and it gets us excited to do these episodes.

Rob: Before we get started, I do need to mention that this podcast is not sponsored. We don't receive any compensation for doing this podcast. Zack Gall, Peter, and I are just three excited members of the EOS community.

Zack: We used to be exciting, not anymore.

Rob: Yeah, not anymore.

Zack: Yeah. We're super excited. I can't wait for today.

Rob: 100% and we do have to disclose of course that all of us do hold EOS tokens. We may also be talking a little bit about dice and some other things, so we'll just go ahead and disclose that as well. But yeah, please don't take any of our opinions that we talk about during this show as legal, financial, tax, professional, or any other kind of advice. We're simply just talking about our opinions about open source software.

Zack: All right Pete, you can take my line. You got to remind people to like and subscribe and smash Buttons.

Rob: Smash it.

Pete: Remember to belt that like button. It really helps us out if you give us good reviews on YouTube, give us good reviews on iTunes, wherever you're listening. Help more people find the show by hitting like, subscribe, share. You know, all this stuff.

Zack: Oh, that was great. All right, so on today's podcast we're going to be discussing Galaxy Digital's recent investment into Mythical Games and what that means for EOS.IO and we're also going to recap our experiences from the Hackathon last weekend. Let's just get to it guys.

Pete: That's where that sound effect comes from.

Zack: All right, so let's just kick this off. Pete's a new member of the Everything EOS crew here. He will be a somewhat recurring member moving forward. He's a really interesting individual. He's worked with me here at ICO Alert since what? When did you start here?

Pete: February.

Zack: February. Why don't you give a little bit about your background?

Pete: I'm Peter Keay. I have a background both in programming and in writing content mostly for video games actually, which we'll talk about later. And was at the EOS Hackathon with Zack Gall. I was the [inaudible 00:02:38] smart contract guy. I also like humanities, philosophy, stuff like that and how they intersect with crypto and the future we want to build. I'm interested in universal resource inheritance, which we should talk about at some point. And yeah, all around love EOS and the crypto space.

Zack: Yeah, if you guys heard a universal resource inheritance podcast over, I don't know, the last two weeks that was this guy here. You probably don't know him. He doesn't do video very frequently.

Pete: Yeah. That's going to change soon.

Zack: So Rob, you're remote. Why don't we explain the situation?

Rob: Yeah, so I actually just got- I am in Virginia right now, so of course I have that place in Pittsburgh. Just got another place in Virginia to be closer to family and a bunch of friends. I have like 60 plus family members who live in the city. So I've got another place and one of my cats, as you can see, is trying to join in on the fun. But so I'll be going back and forth. There'll be some times where I'm in the studio with you guys. There'll be sometimes where I'm on the road, but either way we're going to make it work and keep these episodes coming.

Zack: All right. So you were the one that broke the news in the first place on Twitter with the 200 plus likes and a million retweets. Why don't you introduce the Mythical Games investment and explain what it means to you and to EOS.IO as a whole.

Rob: Absolutely. So if you guys saw over the last week or so, we got a new announcement from Galaxy Digital that finally came out. Galaxy Digital, run by Mike Novogratz, is one of those EOS VC funds. So there are five right now that are trying to dish out that billion dollars that Block.One has put up to fund apps on EOS. And what we saw recently was actually a power team of executives, and game designers, and all these different people that left a bunch of different companies. Activision, which I guess now is Activision Blizzard, but they named Activision- Hold on, I gotta move my cat.

Rob: They named Activision and Blizzard separately, but then you also have people from companies like Niantic, one of the founders, John Lennon of Mythical Games, which is the company that got the investment, actually sold his last mobile game company to Niantic who is of course the makers of Pokemon GO. So really a power team of people that have worked on World of Warcraft, Call of Duty, some huge mobile games, all kinds of stuff and they're all coming together to build games on EOS.

Rob: And the most exciting part about it I think is not just that they're building on EOS or doing all these things, but they're trying to build player created and player owned economies on EOS, which is pretty awesome and I think we should unpack that concept a little bit.

Zack: So I actually found a really interesting video. So you gave some insight of the team. I'm just going to walk through the background of some of these members of the team. I'm going to let the CEO introduce himself on a video clip here, but the CEO, his name's John Lyndon. Like Rob said he's a former studio head at Activision, he was the president of the Niantic acquired Seismic Games. Let's just go to the clip. He does a better job of introducing himself than I can.

John Linden: So my name is John Linden. I've been in the game industry for quite awhile. I originally started off on kind of the big publishers side or the big developer side, so I was a studio head at Activision for about four and a half years, mostly on Call of Duty. So we spent a lot of time on Call of Duty and the beast that was Call of Duty, and then also did a Skylanders game in mobile. We did kind of a very innovative kind of physical trading card where you actually paid at the retail store with physical trading cards. Which was opened up a whole amazing can of worms with Apple and Google, which I think is going to relate to what we're going to see with the crypto world.

John Linden: Then most recently I've been at Seismic Games, so we had a game called MARVEL Strike Force was our most recent game. So it was a top 25 mobile game that came out in May and then we recently sold that to Niantic in June.

Zack: All right. So yeah, John Linden, complete rock star and also their chief compliance officer. Did you say it's Jamie Jackson?

Pete: Jamie Jackson. Yes, CCO.

Zack: Is it a boy or girl?

Pete: He's male. Yes.

Zack: It's a male? So Jamie Jackson is also another former studio head at Activision. So we got two Activision heads. Their chief product officer, Steven Cunningham, is a former Director of Product Management at Yahoo and then their head of blockchain is Rudy Koch, who is a former senior producer at a company that Rob's familiar with, Blizzard.

Rob: yeah.

Pete: Yeah, which I think is part of Activision now. Activision bought Blizzard a couple a years ago.

Zack: Really?

Pete: Activision Blizzard.

Rob: Yeah, unfortunately.

Pete: Unfortunately.

Rob: Quite unfortunately, but-

Pete: We've got all these conglomerates forming. We have Tencent now owns Rockstar, Take-Two, 2K. But hey yeah.

Zack: So who wants to give the background on Activision and Blizzard? Because this is a really big deal, but I don't know if you didn't know who they were, it might not seem like as big of a deal. Who wants to take the ball on that one?

Rob: I mean Blizzard is obviously known for- I'll do the Blizzard part if you want to do the Activation part, Pete.

Pete: [inaudible 00:06:55]. Yeah.

Rob: So Blizzard is known for some pretty big games. Obviously World of Warcraft is one as being the biggest MMORPG, massively multiplayer online role playing game that's ever existed. They of course had the Starcraft franchise, Diablo franchise and now they have Hearthstone and Overwatch which has this huge tournament. So Blizzard has been somebody that's been there for a while, mostly in the PC gaming space, but now of course is moving to mobile and kind of diverting their efforts there.

Rob: But I talked with Rudy actually in Telegram, he's very active in the Mythical Games Telegram and we had a little discussion about what he worked on at World of Warcraft and he did PVP and was working on class design and all kinds of stuff. So it was really cool to finally be able to talk to somebody that worked on a game that I've put 400 plus days of playtime into. So I hope, hope, hope, hope that over the next couple of years maybe they'll build like a World of Warcraft with tokenized items or some kind of play around economy.

Zack: Sounds like the real deal.

Pete: Yeah. Then of course Activision picked up Blizzard. Activision's a huge name. If you were into PlayStation, they did the Tony Hawk, they did Spiro. More recently the did Destiny, they did Call of Duty, all these big series. And for those of you non-gamers, they did Candy Crush Saga, but they made something like $7 billion in revenue last year. They're the biggest game company in terms of revenue in the Americas and Europe. Huge, huge company. Lots of great experience. This team has years and years of experience with Activision and smaller studios.

Zack: So I thought it was funny because a couple weeks ago, I think the episode we did right before the Hackathon, Rob, we kind of brought up those rumors from a couple months ago. So I have it on my screen, I'll put it on everyone else's screen, but someone in Reddit, it says work coin, which I'm pretty sure that's the team behind the EOS links wallet. So Fred-

Rob: Yeah, it is.

Zack: ... if you're watching, this is Fred's probably quote. He said, "Met today with a very impressive game developer and we could say with 100% confidence that Blizzard/Activation quality games are headed to EOS blockchain within six months. Other blockchains such as Hashgraph et cetera within 12 months. CryptoKitties may be the start, but Fortnite/World of Warcraft on EOS with tradable configurable assets MMOGs are coming in 2019." So that rumor was proven to be true.

Rob: Yeah. Assuming that they-

Zack: Who would've thought? I think it's-

Rob: Well we got to see what their first game is going to be. Obviously they put out the Blancos trailer, which I think it looks like you can basically create or buy some kind of unique Avatar, similar to how'd you buy a CryptoKitty and then you battle it out. I guess you have a dance battle or something. They haven't really released what the game is about, but we know it's about dancing and unique characters. So we'll see.

Zack: So I have a little bit of game features in front of me. I'll read them for the people listening and I'll put them on the screen for anyone watching here on YouTube. It says players will be able to collect and use all different types of Blanco characters thanks to blockchain. Players will acquire block assets in various ways to help them build and play with their own block. So you're going to go to these block parties and at each party these Blanco's characters are going to interact with each other and influence each other. They'll be able to buy and sell different items, items will be bought and sold in marketplaces.

Zack: The interesting part is that it says it offers a world of possibilities not only for gamers but also for content creators and professional artists or brands to experiment with their unique designs, skins and characteristics. So basically it's gonna be a marketplace to allow designers and artists to basically monetize their work through this in-game game marketplace by buying and selling their digital items.

Rob: Where did you find that info, by the way? That's all new stuff that I haven't heard, but that's exciting.

Zack: So if you have the notes in front of you, I have some links in there.

Pete: Yeah, that's right from the press release.

Rob: OKay, cool. Yeah, I'll check it out.

Zack: It's from one of the press releases. I mean, everyday a different press release is coming out it seems like with more and more details. So ...

Rob: Yeah, I totally missed that one, but that's exciting. It sounds like you might actually get a block, maybe you get like a virtual piece of land that you can own and you have people come over to it. That sort of expands the concept of the game a lot other than just having a dance battle. So I'm curious to see what it's going to be like next year.

Pete: Yeah, next year is fast. 2019, even for a traditional game that is ambitious and I wonder how long they've actually been working on this behind the scenes. It must have been a long time, but that's really fast and it's fantastic news, especially given current market conditions. We're all looking for a little bit of hopefulness.

Rob: Definitely. Well, I think the most exciting part about all of this also is that they said they're going to be announcing their full lineup of games. So it sounds like we might actually get another announcement about another game before this one actually releases, which would be pretty cool. But they also did mention they're building games on PC, Mac, mobile and console, which I thought was pretty crazy. Imagine buying a console game, you're playing on your Xbox, your PS4, or whatever and the items that you own are stored on the EOS blockchain. I just think that's going to be so cool to see.

Pete: Wow.

Zack: So the intro video I played earlier that let John Linden introduce himself, that video is from back in October, but apparently reading through the comments, or the link that I found that video from, he's been talking about blockchain since at least May. He's been really hardcore talking about blockchain based stuff, but he was still with Seismic Games, so it was kind of a mystery to everyone who was interacting with him, what he had up his sleeve and it was finally announced. So I think we're going to see more information now that he doesn't have to keep everything under lock and key.

Rob: Well and that makes sense. I mean, that he would leave Seismic Games to pursue this because I'm betting that they didn't want to move forward with blockchain. I just watched a 15 or 20 minute presentation that he gave at a conference I think a day or two ago talking about, Activision they're going to take awhile to come along and join the blockchain space. They didn't even get into mobile until after Hearthstone got popular, a decade later after mobile games were already hitting the mainstream. So maybe they didn't want to work on blockchain games and he really wanted to. So after the acquisition he kind of left and said, "Hey, I'm going to go build on EOS."

Zack: From what I understand, it looks like Mythical Games is working with all third party gaming developers. So they're not actually developing any games themselves, they're just handling kind of like the blockchain piece.

Rob: Really?

Zack: Yeah. That's from what I've gathered.

Rob: Wait, so they didn't- I don't know. I think Blancos was developed by them. I could be wrong, but ...

Zack: No, if someone wants to talk I'll tell you who created it. It's just going to take me a second to find [inaudible 00:13:03].

Pete: Well, I mean, as of about a month ago, there was a blockchain game alliance announced, I know Ubisoft joined. Ubisoft was demoing some kind of game they created on Ethereum. I know, I know, I know and so there are these larger developers are kind of looking at it. As you said Rob, they'll probably be a little slow to move into it, but there is a little bit more interest. So it wouldn't surprise me. Have you found what you're looking for yet? I filled for you.

Zack: No, I'm still looking.

Pete: Yeah, I mean- I think one of the biggest-

Zack: I specifically read something that said they're going to use a different game studio for all their games they're coming out with. They're not-

Rob: I had seen ... In that keynote he did mention like, "Hey, this is something that we can take to an existing game and apply it to that just by tokenizing the items or adding some other kind of layer that's tokenized where you don't have to sort of build it from scratch with the goal that it's going to run on a blockchain." So maybe that's what he was referencing, but maybe Blancos is also the case. We'll have to ask in their Telegram.

Pete: Well, there's definitely things going on behind the scenes. Do you remember HashCraft? Not Hashgraph, HashCraft?

Rob: No.

Pete: Ubisoft, it was back in maybe September, they suddenly unveiled this blockchain concept game that was kind of like Minecraft and No Man's Sky mixed, and the new better No Man's Sky, not the original terrible No Man's Sky, and it was on Ethereum. It wasn't really like we're going to create this game. It was a concept that they were pushing. So Sony's moving towards blockchain on PlayStation network to record actions and stuff like that. Epic Games has partnered with a blockchain firm rumoredly. So there are other players coming in and I'm glad to see Mythical has plans to move so quickly because there's going to be competition in the space.

Zack: I found the information. It's called Third Kind Games, that's the independent game studio that they partnered with for Blancos. So I think there's going to be more. I found another interesting article. I'm gonna put all these articles in the description so that everyone else could read, but hearing John Linden quote where he talks about hiding complexity. So he says, "Another significant aspect of Mythical Games' approach is how it will present its blockchain features to gamers. The short answer is it won't. Partly this is because it's running on EOS, which has a very complex onboarding process in terms of setting up a wallet and staking EOS to gain access to the blockchain. But partly because Linden believes how any blockchain works is irrelevant to the vast majority of users."

Zack: He says, "They won't know it as a blockchain because we are running on EOS. We can stake for users and hide fees," he says. The platform's marketplace will also run using Fiat currency, although power users will be able to peel away this abstraction and handle their own wallet keys if they want to.

Pete: Perfect.

Rob: Nice. This is a concept you talked about a lot.

Zack: This is what we've been talking about. Yeah, because they could have the private key set up. So whenever you sign up for Blancos, what's the cost right now of setting up a wallet, Rob? Fifty cents? A dollar?

Rob: It's probably about a dollar now with the present EOS, maybe less.

Zack: So-

Rob: Maybe 60 cents.

Zack: They could technically eat that cost upfront and then charge the fee if you want to prioritize your key. So we know how to switch an owner active key on EOS, it's a pretty simple process. So that's where they could actually charge you the money to recoup their $1 that they invested in your wallet upfront.

Rob: Oh, definitely.

Zack: Is if you want to take ownership of your active key, they could just do an owner active key swap and give you your private key and that's where they might charge you a dollar or two to recoup their costs. Or maybe they'll charge you $5. Who knows how the fee models are going to work.

Rob: I think even beyond that, I mean they could set it up where they don't even need to make an EOS account for you to start it off. Maybe they store your items with 10,000 other people's items in one EOS account and they have in their own internal database, like a centralized database, hey, this belongs to this person, this belongs to this person. Then if you want to you can withdraw out of your own wallet or maybe create one in the app. So I think they can probably avoid that fee all together for the people that don't actually want to handle all their own stuff and just want it to act like a normal game.

Pete: Right.

Zack: So Rob, let's backtrack a little bit. So this is really big news this week. Let's go back to last week into the Hackathon. Why don't you tell us your perspective, because Pete and I were kind of busy hacking away and coding. What was your experience like as a mentor at the Hackathon?

Rob: Oh my God, it was crazy. First of all, huge shout out to all the people that came up to not only myself, but also Zack and introduced themselves and said, "Hey, we saw your videos. We love watching Everything EOS." It's so cool not only to see obviously people talking about Everything EOS in the comments section below this video, but also when you take it in person and you're sitting down and talking with people that watch your show on a weekly basis, it's just so humbling. So a huge shout out to everybody that came up to us and said hello.

Rob: But it was a really incredible experience. I mean, there were 500 plus people trying to build dapps on EOS in the same building over that 26-ish hour period when you can actually hack. The whole thing's about 36 hours, but I mean, the energy there in that place is just totally contagious. I was super excited and ready to go the entire time.

Rob: But to sort of sum it all up, I think over the course of the weekend I met some incredibly smart people building some really cool stuff and I think the winners were chosen correctly. They had some cool ones like [inaudible 00:18:09] that won first place for decentralized GitHub, but definitely an exhausting time as well. I know at the end of it all the people that were hacking and all the people that were mentoring like I was, were just totally spent.

Rob: So even on Monday though we still managed to get up and go to the scaling blockchain conference, and I did the keynote speech there in a panel, and we did an Everything EOS episode there. So it was still cool and we sort of squeezed that last bit energy out of ourselves I think to make it happen, but I can't wait for next year and all the Hackathons that are [crosstalk 00:18:35].

Zack: I just want to put it on the record. So I just released my final scaling blockchain video last night, which was Monday. I just want to let everyone know for the record that I almost died doing those podcasts. I risked my life.

Rob: He did, that's true. I witnessed it.

Zack: So I don't think I've ever mentioned on the show before, but I'm type one diabetic, so I got to take insulin with all my meals. I've got this Bluetooth thing on my arm. It's constantly sending my blood sugars to my phone. I'm in my element, I'm doing these podcasts and my phone's just going crazy because it's a medical device whenever it's telling me I have a low blood sugar, but I'm in this podcast. I'm like, I'll be done soon. I literally, I had to cut it out of the video so you didn't see, but I tossed my phone like 30 feet away from myself so you couldn't hear the alarm going off.

Zack: So not only did I get no sleep ... So the Hackathon started about 8:00 AM, check in on Saturday. So I was there by 8:00 AM on Saturday and we did not sleep more than two hours throughout the night on Saturday night. Then all through Sunday we're finishing up our pitch, working on our project and then Sunday night, right after the Hackathon, Pete and I went to all the different social events. We ended up meeting up with Mike Novogratz, and SVK Crypto, and all kinds of other cool people that we couldn't even dream of meeting prior to this. So we didn't get much sleep Sunday night. Got in late and then straight into Monday morning and got to be at the conference at 8:00 AM, start recording podcasts. It was a marathon. What was your experience there Pete?

Rob: It was crazy.

Pete: Oh man same thing. I'm I guess newer to the EOS community, I haven't been around as long as you guys, but and while you were making memes there at the Hackathon-

Zack: I was trying to win the social media.

Pete: ... I was busy writing code in C ++. Zack was coding over there in Photoshop and I was coding-

Rob: Yeah, I walked by your table. I can totally vouch for it because I walked by your table one time and I see a photo of Dan and you have like a championship belt and you Photoshopped it. Then I was like, "How is this relevant to what you guys are filming," but there it was.

Zack: So my plan for the Hackathon was I didn't know what our chances were of winning the Hackathon. I got more bullish on winning towards the end and Pete could sort of tell the story about our pitch.

Pete: Then it was too late man.

Rob: Yeah, it's a cool story.

Zack: But my whole plan was to win the $3,000 best social media post. We made this really good highlight video which I could even maybe play while-

Pete: Oh yeah. Put it up. Put it up.

Zack: Yeah, I'll put it up while I'm talking here. So you could watch the highlights while I talk. But we made this really cool video, it was like a team effort. Evan Schindler, who was also on our team, he helped. He mostly did all the editing for that and I posted that and I thought that was going to be enough to win. But the girl who ended up did win, the girl who won, she did an amazing job. So she kicked my ass outright, but I was getting desperate at the end. So we were in the one last hour of the contest, I'm like, "I need more engagement. I need more posts."

Zack: So I start making memes and posting them to the EOS Hackathon hashtag just trying desperately to do whatever I could to win.

Pete: You were crafting after the deadline. I had to remind you that the deadline was 1:00 PM. I was like, "Zack, it's over. It's over, stop. Stop"

Zack: I was so-

Rob: Put the memes away.

Zack: So Pete, why don't you talk about our pitch, because it was really cool. We actually got to pitch to Mike Novogratz.

Pete: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Rob: Yeah, this is such a cool story.

Pete: Brian from EOS VC was there too, and a mentor that I didn't recognize, but we pitched him our product, which has to do with game marketplaces, exactly what we were talking about. We came up with a way to incentivize content creators to make more content because they make money off it when it sells and to incentivize players to buy cool items, use cool items, play well with cool items. We thought it was a pretty cool project. Our UI guy, shout out to Ben who's not from anywhere around here. He stayed overnight. I wrote the contract, Zack made all the memes we didn't use in the presentation and Evan put our pitch together.

Pete: Threw a pitch, hardball at Mike Novogratz. Reportedly he gave us a great score. He told us afterwards he wanted to see us up there, but with the other judges and the way the scores worked out, it didn't work out. But it was great to meet Mike. I had [crosstalk 00:22:33].

Zack: Why don't we throw up the picture of you with Mike.

Pete: Oh, yeah. Let's throw it up. Sure, sure.

Zack: So Rob's got a picture with Dan, but Pete's got one with Novagratz.

Pete: Yeah, yeah and I don't know what that jacket is-

Rob: That's awesome. [inaudible 00:22:43].

Pete: I kind of hate/love that jacket. What do you think about that jacket?

Zack: Yeah, Rob, did you see his jacket?

Rob: Oh yeah. I thought it was great. I went up and I said hello to him in like the happy hour after and just said, "Hey." I wanted to know if the deals they were doing were equity deals or token deals and he explained that. He said High Fidelity was equity and I think [inaudible 00:23:02] was like a mix of tokens and equity. But beyond that I was like, "Hey, by the way, we have a podcast Everything EOS and my friends Zack always calls you Mike Novaball," and he laughed and then I walked away. But he was awesome. He had like these white pants with a red stripe down the side and this crazy patterned jacket. It was cool.

Pete: Yeah, I mean in this picture I'm explaining to him that my CryptoKitty, my prize CryptoKitty, was Mike Novacats and it wasn't super valuable maybe generation five or nine or something. I told him it just sold, I just sold it a few weeks before this picture for $3.

Rob: That's nice. Hey, that's good.

Zack: It was interesting too because when we were talking to Novogratz, I was telling him about the podcast and I talked to him after you talked to him, so I don't know if he even remembered, but we were talking about VR in games and how we think a lot of these blockchain based use cases are going to be seen first in the gaming industry and then in real life afterwards. He was this close to telling me some secrets about some upcoming investments. I'm pretty sure he said there's two upcoming investments within the next couple of weeks. So we saw this Activision one.

Rob: [crosstalk 00:24:08] one, yeah.

Zack: So that's one. So I think we could expect the second one to come out here soon, but he almost told me about one of them. Probably the one that just got announced this week, but he almost told me a few days early and I would've felt like a super secret insider, but he stopped himself. I wouldn't have had such self control because I would've been like the probably dozen other people that came up to us and told us all about their secrets that haven't been announced yet that I can't talk about on the show.

Rob: Right. Exactly.

Pete: So what other stories you got?

Rob: Yeah, it was crazy. There were a lot of people there that are building external dapps on EOS. I mean the- Well, you go ahead, tell a story.

Pete: I don't know. You tell a story, Rob.

Rob: Do you have a story Pete?

Zack: You're the superstar Rob.

Pete: Yeah Rob, what was mentoring like? What was mentoring like? Tell us about that. We didn't mentor.

Rob: Mentoring was cool. I mean I was like- So my whole goal was like, "Oh, I'm going for most valuable mentor." So at the end when they announce all the Hackathon winters, there's also a prize for one of the mentors. I think it's like a Nintendo Switch or something. Jay Chung from HK EOS did win it, so a huge shout out to Jay. If anybody was gonna beat me at it, it had to be Jay.

Rob: But so the first day I was like, "Oh yeah, let's go. Let's go." Super high energy and going around all the tables and then that night I went back and got like, I don't know, six or seven hours of sleep fortunately. Came back in the morning and I was just like really feeling it. I'm not used to, first of all, socializing for 15 hours a day and talking to people for that long, but I'm not really used to doing anything for 15 hours a day.

Zack: But come on, Rob-

Rob: So it was just raining and then the second day I was a little-

Zack: We talked about this, didn't you feel like the pretty girl at the dance? That everyone wanted to dance with [crosstalk 00:25:37]?

Rob: Oh, definitely. It was so crazy. Like so many people. So many people came up and recognized me and were like, "Hey, I love your videos. Hey Everything EOS." Whatever it was, it was really cool to just meet the community out on the ground. But honestly-

Zack: You had another story. Your hotel room was-

Rob: Oh my God, I forgot. I almost forgot. OKay. So all of the mentors stayed at this one hotel, right? That's where Block.One put them all up. I had joined very late, thanks to SVK Crypto for getting me in as a mentor at the last second. But because of that I wasn't ... Block.One didn't pay for my hotel or my flight or anything like that like they paid for the other mentors. So I got a hotel totally separate from where all the mentors were staying and it turns out it was the same hotel where Dan, and Rob [inaudible 00:26:12], and all of these other Block.One people were staying.

Rob: So the first day I got there, I'm going up. I had just gone out to look for one of the masks because the air quality was so bad and I got a drink or something. I came back up to my room and I'm about to open the door and I put my key card in the door. I looked to my left and I'm like, oKeay, there's two people like hugging. It was a man or woman who are standing next to each other. I was like, "Oh my God, that's Dan Larimer," and I was like, "Dan!" And I went up and shook his hand and it was him and his wife. I was like," I'm sorry, I don't want to bother you."

Rob: I was not expecting to see him there. I was waiting like at the Hackathon, like, "Oh, I'll have something prepared to say." So it caught me totally off guard and I was flustered. Like, "Hey, I'm with CypherGlass blah blah blah." I don't think it came across very well and then I tried to go into the wrong hotel room to get back into my room.

Zack: Your key is not working.

Rob: I was starstruck. I was like, "Oh God," and he's then thinking I'm like following him or something. But anyway, so I bumped into him.

Pete: As long as you weren't trying to go into his room.

Rob: Right, exactly. No, he was down the hall a couple doors.

Zack: It was the weirdest thing at the Hackathon. Dan was like Jesus there. He couldn't go anywhere without there being a line. That's why I don't have a picture with Dan Larimer is because I felt so awkward waiting in line to meet this man who is just like a regular person.

Rob: Oh yeah. Yeah. A huge shout out to Dan though for actually coming out and because it's much harder for him to stand in line and answer the same questions over and over and have people take photos. He has the bad end of that, so thanks to him for allowing me to take a photo and all these other people. But then I also bumped into Rob Jesudason, I think he's the CFO of Block.One. He had a Block.One shirt on in the elevator.

Zack: He's the Australian guy. I think he's president maybe, he's the Australian banker guy, right?

Rob: From Jefferies I think it was.

Zack: Yeah, I think so. He took a weird selfie at our table. Have you seen that online yet? I haven't found it. He was the guy that stood behind us and made us like pretend we were working.

Pete: Oh yeah. Because, well I was working. I mean I was sitting there working.

Zack: I was memeing.

Pete: He was like, "Yeah, take the meme off the screen so I can take this photo."

Zack: Yeah, we've gotta give a shout out to Mark too actually.

Pete: Mark? Oh yeah, Mark was the other guy who was on our team.

Zack: Ben was the one coding the front end allowing me to just BS and meme with everyone.

Pete: Mark helped a lot with the concept and the pitch and things like that and some concepts.

Zack: So what was your interaction with Rob?

Rob: It was good, I shook his hand. I was like, "Hey, I'm also Rob. You're with Block.One, right?" I was like, "Oh, Rob Jesudason." When he said Rob it clicked who he was and I was like, "You know, it's cool. I'll be at the Hackathon." Just a little bit of small talk and then he got out of the elevator, but he seemed like a really nice dude. He was like, his face lit up when he realized I was part of the EOS Hackathon also. So he seems genuinely excited to be there and the same with pretty much all the Block.One people seemed super excited to be at the event.

Pete: And I mean everyone was really excited to be at that event. If you're in the EOS community or even the crypto community and you're considering going to conferences or events, I'd strongly recommend Hackathons. Even if you don't really hack a lot, even if you're an ideas person, or a media person, or just want to meet the community, this was the most shill free Hackathon I've ever been to.

Rob: Everyone was shilling on the same team.

Pete: Most of the conferences-

Rob: Look at this. Ooh, I had to go get this.

Pete: Yeah, sweet. Right.

Rob: We got this amazing merch. We got all the merch.

Zack: Oh yeah. Speaking of merch, so we talked about tee shirts and shill right before the Hackathon. So I'm rocking my EOS BlockSmith tee shirt. Thank you EOS BlockSmith.

Pete: shEOS, think outside the blocks.

Zack: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stand up.

Pete: All right, standing up.

Zack: Got the shEOS tee shirt on Pete here. We got the Patagonia's.

Pete: Hold on, hold on. We got the EOS, we got an EOS logo in there.

Rob: Oh yeah.

Pete: I got a Biddle shirt.

Rob: I don't know if you can see it. Always repping.

Pete: I got a Biddle shirt. I bargained with somebody said that they would get on the podcast, but then I forgot what their project is so they're not on the podcast. Sorry.

Zack: Rob, we've got lots of tee shirts on the way. I got messaged on Telegram by so many people that said they didn't have a shirt at the Hackathon. They got my address, so I told them all you were a large. They'll be coming to me. We've got a CPU Emergency coming.

Pete: We got CypherGlass shirts.

Zack: Aloha EOS. I'm still waiting on my CypherGlass shirt, Rob.

Rob: Oh it's coming. We're getting a good one for you. We don't just want to give you any CypherGlass shirt. It has to be top of the line.

Zack: I want like a nice flannel comforter for my bed with CypherGlass logos on it.

Rob: It can have like my face sort of like in a pattern with the logo.

Zack: Oh my God, a pillow cover with Rob's face.

Rob: Yeah exactly.

Pete: You would do Dan's face though.

Rob: You flip it over and Dan is on the other side.

Pete: Yeah there you go. There you go.

Zack: My wife would divorce me.

Rob: But yeah, it was a cool event all around. I mean if you have a chance to get to a Hackathon next year, and I went up to Brian, not Brian Miller from EOS VC, but the guy from AngelHack and I was like, "So are they doing these next year?" And he was like about to answer and then he was like, "I can't say anything until it's public," but I can't imagine with the reception that Block.One got with all the projects that came out of it, I can't imagine them not doing this next year. So if you think we had about six months of Hackathons this year and had four different Hackathons. So next year I would bet we see six to eight, maybe 10 Hackathons in all different places around the world and I'm going to try to go to a lot of them because it was such a cool experience.

Zack: And I would love to be at as many as possible and just like we did the live podcasting at the scaling blockchain, I think it's worth investigating to see if Block.One will let us set up a podcasting area at the hackathon. I don't know if they'll go for that or not, but I-

Pete: Ooh, that's a cool idea.

Rob: But then how will you make your memes Zack?

Zack: I don't need to make memes if I'm making great content that could educate the world about EOS.IO.

Rob: Then people will start making memes of you.

Zack: I made some contacts with Block.One, so I do have a few people I could ping to see if this is even something in the realm of possibility. But if anyone thinks it's a good idea, leave some comments. That'd be nice.

Rob: Something I want to mention also of my experience with Block.One at the hackathon is it seems they're really, really listening to the community. So I sat down with a guy for probably 10 or 15 minutes who was like a UX researcher talking about what would help developers get into the ecosystem, what would help me, what are the favorite [inaudible 00:31:58], and really it seems like they're focused more on releasing a complete. A feature complete wallet that you could have an exchange, and a way to make a wallet easily, and all these things built into that IOS wallet we've been talking about rather than an MVP.

Rob: So I went and I got a demo from Greg actually at the event of the hardware wallet finally, and of course I'm sure it'll change dramatically I'm sure from where it starts, but it was very simple, very similar to EOS links. But the cool part was that he showed me signing a transaction with his face. So live on the EOS blockchain he sent a transaction to somebody else using his face, which was basically accessing the keys in a secure enclave.

Rob: Now he did mention there are some interesting things that they sort of have to solve. So because the secure enclave in your iPhone is so secure, if you lose your phone, it's gone. Like you just lost your keys too. There's no recovery seed, there's nothing like that. So they need to build some kind of function into that where maybe you recover with a friend or you do something else.

Zack: Yeah. What about the account recovery feature on EOS? Wouldn't that kind of ...

Rob: I think that might be possible. That's something I think still has to be implemented, but they could totally put something like that out and then release the wallet. But the interesting thing was he had mentioned he had a conversation with Brendan Blumer I guess, and their initial plan was to just put out an MVP. Like let's get this wallet out as soon as possible. Let's get it to market and we'll iterate from there and I think that has shifted a little bit where they're going, "OKay, there are plenty of MVP wallets out there that all do the same thing. Instead of doing that, let's make sure that when the Block.One wallet comes out, it's the best feature complete Wallet you can get that interacts with other dapps and you can do everything on your phone.

Rob: So he mentioned they did solve an issue where if you want to sign a transaction on EOS nights for example, if I'm using the MEET.ONE app to do so, it pops me out of the EOS nights app and I have to sign the transaction in MEET.ONE and then it pulls me back. But they figured out a way to sort of make all of that happen within the same app you're using. So it seems like there's going to be some big UX improvements there.

Pete: By the way, what floor have you gotten to Rob? What's your floor record?

Rob: Oh, 420. 420.

Pete: Oh, man. I'm not even there. I'm not even in the triple digits yet.

Rob: Oh and I sold- Oh my God, I sold-

Pete: You're almost up to those epic items.

Rob: I crafted an Excalibur, which is I think like an ancient item or something and it sold for 50 EOS. It cost me like 30 EOS to make and I figured, oh, like if it doesn't sell, I'll just use it for my character once I hit level 12 or whatever and I put it up for sale and it sold for 50 EOS. So EOS Nights has a ton of volume going through it. It's pretty crazy.

Zack: So we can't name names, but there were some other prominent members of the community, and this is speculation on their end too, but they were predicting and Rob, I think you heard the same rumors that Block.One might be working on a browser?

Rob: Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know like is it going to be an app browser or is it like a browser where you can go to a website and then similar to [inaudible 00:34:35] that it's built in. I don't know, but I think whatever that browser is, which I personally think it's a dapp browser, it will probably be built into that wallet so that, hey, all I need to do to get into the EOS ecosystem, download this free wallet, make a free account and boom, you can now play at that point, hundreds, maybe thousands of dapps that exist.

Zack: I can't wait. I'm trying to think of other cool stuff that happened.

Pete: One of the topics of discussion that was at this Hackathon, everyone was talking about it, that Chinese media group, Rob, I know you interviewed with them. I did too. A lot of block producers that are making waves, kind of new guys like Aurora, they had presentations on ECAF, the arbitration forum, right?

Zack: Ban ECAF.

Pete: [crosstalk 00:35:15] and that was the big topic making waves there other than Hackathon. On the whole, people just came together, and regardless of their disputes, they built projects, they were excited about each other's projects. Seriously guys, go to the Hackathons if you want to go to crypto events, but on the side when people felt a little less bullish they talked about ECAF and what are your guys' thoughts? Have you talked about it on the show? What do you think about ECAF?

Zack: So I just put out the podcast with Milo Snyder and Kevin Rose from Aurora BP-

Pete: Must listen.

Zack: Aurora EOS and EOS New York, and that was I think the first time that they both publicly stated they are against ECAF at this point. As far as a base layer arbitration, they are against that and we are kind of all in agreement that as soon as referendum is ready, someone's going to propose a removal of Article IX which gives ECAF their authority. It seems like at least between the two of them and then they kind of convinced me, that at this point I'm against ECAF also. How about you Rob?

Rob: 100%. Yeah, I am as well and it's so interesting how ECAF even got into power. Like it's this weird origin story of how were these people chosen? Totally unelected members, very similar to the SEC, just unelected people that nobody has any control over what they're doing, but they happen to sort of govern over the EOS community. The crazy thing to me that stuck out at the Hackathon and that's scaling blockchain was that talking to people about it, there was not one person I talked to that was in favor of it, but pretty much everybody I talked to that was against it said that they were afraid to come out and say something against it for whatever reason.

Rob: So it's something where I'm actually putting out a video on it this week, basically our stance that we are also against it and if you look at the current EOS constitution, technically it hasn't been ratified. It's a placeholder constitution. So technically ECAF doesn't have any power and I think a lot of the proxies now including [inaudible 00:37:02] and Freedom Proxy are looking at BPs and saying, "Hey, we're not gonna vote for you if you continue to implement these ECAF orders." So I think even without that article being removed explicitly, I think they're sort of losing power already. Which is a very good thing because they're sort of the centralized point of failure in the network.

Zack: I'm all for onchain arbitration-

Rob: Oh, absolutely.

Zack: Just not at the base layer and opt-in only.

Rob: And it needs to be opt in. Exactly. It has to be opt-in.

Zack: That's the only way you could have permanent transactions and knowing that they're immutable is if there's no way to reverse it on the base layer. Now if you want to check a box every time you sign something and opt into an arbitration layer, that's great. I think that's more than necessary. I think there should be multiple ECAFs handling that layer of arbitration, but on the base layer only I am against ECAF.

Rob: Absolutely. I don't think any arbitration on the base layer is bad. You need a free market for arbitrators where if I want and only if I want, I can go out and have somebody arbitrate over my smart contract or my business deal or whatever it might be.

Pete: I think this is a particularly important moment in EOS' development, this constitution ECAF controversy because one of the major objections that proponents of other chains have is that, well, if I had a transaction on EOS, it could just get reversed by somebody taking over, some block producer or whatever. If we handle that on the base layer, then that'll just remove that objection and really increase, I think, EOS' reputation among the broader crypto community. It's important to handle and it's important to handle now before the system gets too big for us to make changes easily. You know?

Rob: Well and even, I mean that's another point about ECAF is that when the system gets that big, it doesn't scale. It doesn't scale with one arbitrator, with people who aren't even formally trained in arbitration who don't have a budget, who don't have a real business model and a point that Ashura made on Twitter was that these arbitrators, when they actually exist in the free market, they need to have a business model. They don't need to run on donations. They need to be able to make money whether it's, "Hey, I'll help you recover your account, prove the owner is yours and you give me 10% of that," because having 90% is better than 0%, or maybe it's something else, but they can't be, in my opinion, charities that are just draining money, especially not inflation out of the EOS ecosystem.

Zack: That was kind of one of our topics of conversation with Kevin Rose and Milo Snyder was basically I was asking like how are they funded and they explained to me how they're funded. Whenever they solve the case, they get like a percentage of the ruling, but-

Rob: Wait, they do that now.

Zack: I'm pretty sure one of them, that's how they explained it. We are in the ecosystem-

Rob: No wonder they jumped at that.

Zack: ... and we don't really even understand that much about ECAF.

Rob: Yeah, that's what's crazy is ECAF to me feels like-

Zack: It's a black hole.

Rob: ... and maybe this is too conspiratorial, but it feels like something like five years from now, if it didn't get removed, people would be like, "Oh, that's how the NSA, or the government, or whatever infiltrated EOS. They set up ECAF at the beginning and nobody actually fought it." It's just amazing that- No, go ahead.

Pete: I love how you called ECAF like the SEC. You said it's kind of like the SEC. It's just a point, it wasn't really-

Rob: Yeah, they're just unelected.

Pete: I think that you win the battle right there with that language. Just call ECAF the SEC and people will be against it.

Rob: They totally are. I mean they can basically govern what you do and don't do on the network. "Hey, we're gonna help this person to recover their keys, but how do we really know it's that." And I think a lot of the stuff they've done so far has been good where they have cryptographic proof that this guy owned the Ethereum address associated with the EOS account so they can freeze it and eventually help that guy get his funds. But number one, that's not scalable. Number two, it's done way more harm than the good it's helped those 10 people get their EOS back, but there's definitely a better way and ECAF is not the way to go about that.

Zack: So moving along away from ECAF but into more fun we can talk about. It was interesting, we'll back up to the Hackathon. So after the Hackathon, the evening of Sunday night, we, all three of us went to the Airdrops Stack mix and mingle, which happened to have some controversy I think last week.

Pete: Well we met with a couple of their podcasters, you got that photo of us.

Zack: Rod, do you want to explain the Airdrops Stack private key hack thingy madoodle?

Rob: Yeah. So-

Pete: Oh, I didn't hear about this.

Rob: ... what basically happened was that the two first clients of Airdrops Stack which were Higher Vibes and ZKS, so HVT and ZKS, in order to actually claim the tokens and get them issued to you, you need to go and claim them on EOS toolkit. And basically what happened was somebody found a bug in that claim process where they could just issue sort of an unlimited amount of tokens to themselves for free. But when they found out about this they were able to reclaim a lot of those tokens because they were made with Airdrop stack ram, so that was a convenient feature where they got basically all of the tokens back other than 2,500 EOS worth.

Rob: But the controversy arose when somebody found out that the account that did the exploit was created by an account of a BP and it was EOS.IO Singapore, EOS.ISG on the chain. So they were in some way ... and creating an account, having a parent account that created another account doesn't mean you own that account. There are a lot of instances where a friend makes an account for you or some accounts service does it, but it was a little suspicious and they of course came out and then said, "Hey, our keys were compromised. It wasn't us. They were compromised. Somebody else got it."

Rob: Either way, whether your keys were compromised or your keys weren't compromised and you did the hack, that's not good for a block producer. That number one, you can't keep control of your keys. Or number two, you're stealing from people on the network. So either way it was a horrible situation and it's kind of crazy that they're still in the top 21, but I don't think that'll really change until we have higher voter turnout.

Zack: Yeah, I don't know the whole story, but it seemed like they both had ... So the Singapore EOS guys, and the Airdrops Stack guys, or one of the other third parties that Airdrops Stack was working with, they both had private keys leak in their repo somehow. So it gets-

Rob: Oh yeah, the Airdrop Stack one was on their GitHub.

Zack: Yeah. So it's kind of like negligence on both sides. I mean I don't know who's right and who's wrong in this situation. I don't know enough about it, but man, it stirred up some controversy and I hope the Singapore guys are innocent, but at the same time, like I'm very, very skeptical of that because it seems kind of shady.

Rob: The whole thing was weird because they could have easily come out and said they were testing the contract, which is what I thought at first when I saw it. Like oh, they're a BP, they're doing a good service. They're looking for exploits so that then they can tell people how to fix them, but then when all those tokens went to Binance, the EOS that they had sold on a decks and they sent the EOS to Binance, it was like, "Oh, wait a minute. They're not doing this for the good of the community. They're doing this to make that 2500 EOS.

Rob: It just blows my mind. For only 2500 EOS, I understand that's a lot of money. Well now it's a little bit less. That's 10 or 12 grand, but to put your whole reputation as a block producer on the line for $12,000 just seems so short sighted. It's really crazy to me.

Rob: But I do need to mention though with Airdrop Stack, I spoke with Blue Jays on Telegram about the exploit and they've since went in and patched it and I do think that their model will be very, very successful in the future where they can basically the least rammed Airdrops for a fraction of the cost and it's a claim only thing. I think it will be successful, but I'm glad they got the bug fixed now rather than a year from now when 100, or 200, or 300 projects could be affected.

Zack: Yeah. I love the concept behind Airdrop Stack. So the problem they're solving is, and it might not be as big of a problem now with the token price where it's at and the RAM markets a settled down a little bit, but basically it's similar to how you could lease CPU using shintire in the future REX. It's similar to that where you're essentially leasing RAM from a decentralized organization that has a lot of RAM and you could run an Airdrop for significantly less money. Rather than having to put up 20 to 30 grand it might be like 10 grand now, but that's still a significant amount of money to buy RAM just to Airdrop your tokens to the community. So Airdrop Stack will handle the ownership of that RAM and the distribution of those Airdrop tokens for a nominal fee to I guess the project doing the Airdrop. So I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Rob: Yeah, they basically do it at a third of the cost of what it would cost you now. But what's interesting is they also apparently have a VC arm attached to them. So if you're a project where you need seed funding, you need to find developers to build your idea and you want them to do it all, you can actually go to Airdrop Stack and they'll give you seed funding and they'll help you find developers. They'll help you do the Airdrop, they really help you with the whole process. So I think we'll see a lot of projects that are not just Airdrops come out of there, but also projects that were seed funded thanks to EOS Stack and their VC partner. So it's pretty cool that more of these funds are popping up that aren't even EOS VC funds.

Zack: That's awesome. And I noticed too that on that Galaxy Digital investment into the Mythical Games, another one of the VCs on that was OKCoin, who is the also the owner of OK Blockchain Capital and they're not an EOS VC, but they made an announcement back in like May or April about $100 million dollar EOS development fund.

Rob: Yeah. $100 million dollars of their own money going into EOS [crosstalk 00:45:42]. That's crazy.

Zack: Yes and that's OK Blockchain Capital, who is a subsidiary of OKCoin. So we'll see what comes out of that.

Rob: Well, of OKX. They exchange.

Zack: Yeah, sorry. OKCoin, OKX, OK Blockchain Capital, they're all kind of under the same umbrella, but OK Blockchain Capital is the one who put out the press release announcing the $100 million of their own money to keep funding these companies.

Rob: Yeah that's so like ... I remember when we saw that we were thinking, "Oh this must be EOS VC. Surely they didn't put up $100 million of their own," and it was like, "Oh no, wow. Like that's their own money. They believe in EOS that much." So there's a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes.

Pete: And we're going to see, we've been talking about gaming, we're going to see a massive shift in gaming and just to tell you about the numbers here, Fortnite's earned a billion dollars from in game virtual purchases. The gaming collectables market is something like $100 billion or projected to be $100 billion in the next year or so. There is a massive market here and that's $100 billion of goods that's owned by developers in such a way that like maybe they'll shut down, maybe they'll change your items up, maybe they'll go bankrupt or whatever and you just lose everything. They control the supply, they control absolutely everything about it. That's fine. It's their game, but maybe there's a better way. We're exploring better ways and I really think that gaming is the inroad here and I know you guys agree with me there.

Rob: I totally agree.

Pete: To the point where thought that gaming was going to be the theme at the Hackathon.

Zack: I mean it was for our team.

Pete: It was for our team, yeah. [crosstalk 00:47:12].

Rob: I'm looking for his name and I can't find it. I think it starts with an S but the guy who I think is the CMO, chief marketing officer, at Block.One tweeted today basically saying that gaming is the way that blockchains will reach mass adoption and that's why [crosstalk 00:47:25], they funded Mythical Games.

Zack: That's exactly what we've been saying too.

Rob: Exactly. It's like they've been listening.

Zack: Yeah, I've got a Mike Novogratz quote right in front of me from one of the many press releases that came out this past week. He says, quote Mike Novogratz, "We believe that gaming and specifically players interaction within game economies and virtual goods will play a key role in how the masses first discover the true potential of the blockchain." So it's exactly what we've been saying. We're going to see this user adoption in a virtual world well before in the real world we see the mainstream adoption that we expect in the next 10 to 20 years.

Rob: Oh, absolutely. Well, and if you think about it, it makes a ton of sense because who right now values digital items? If you could name a group of people in the world that values digital items, it's gamers. I mean these are people that whether it was buying gold on a website like you did with [inaudible 00:48:11] coins awhile ago, that was a digital item that you valued. Yeah. Well, and even with items in games right now that you can't get any kind of monetary value out of, those items have a value to the gamer. So these are people that are already know that digital things can have value, that digital things can be unique. They're already sort of primed and ready to accept this and then when you add a blockchain to that and you say, "Hey, now you own the items. You can make the items, you can make money from the items." All of these different things. I mean the billions of people worldwide that play games are going to jump on top of this and it's just going to be wild.

Pete: I think that's only the beginning and I mean I cut you off but, I think that's really only the beginning because we can test economies, we can test how these tokenized economies will work in games and then apply them to other real world, if I can call them that, industries. Where we take the lessons we learned from the virtual world and apply them to the real world especially with AR and advancements like that.

Zack: Imagine you're playing like a car game or something where, and this isn't something that's non existent, but like there's a part of the game where it allows you to like modify different pieces of your car, maybe custom draw decals for your car. Imagine if you're able to like just create your own spoiler for your own car where it's very unique because you created the entire thing from scratch and then another player in that game is able to look at that spoiler and say, "I like that. How could I buy that off of you?" And be able to buy that off of you for real money. That's where we're going here is you own what you create and you could transfer that asset to anyone in the world in a trustless way.

Rob: Yeah. Well, and this has been a huge problem. When we talk about blockchains, it's always like, "Hey, get rid of the middleman. We don't need centralized control ruining people's lives." And generally we look at examples like real estate in developing countries where the ledger that says who owns what property is frequently corrupted and they steal people's land. But the same thing happens in virtual games. If you look at second life they called, and John Linden is actually not associated with the Linden-

Zack: I thought the same thing.

Rob: I was like, "Oh, it's the second life guy." Oh no, no, it's not. It's somebody else. But anyway, they had what were called acts of Linden where the game developer Linden would come in, Linden Labs, and make a change to the game that would lose people real money. I think they actually got sued in the process of doing this.

Rob: Same thing has happened in World of Warcraft. If you do one thing, if you're out of the bounds of the game and the GM doesn't like it, they can ban you and all of those items, all of the work you put into that is now gone because they control it. But if you give that control back to the gamers, you're going to see things like, you could have a fork in World of Warcraft where Blizzard comes out with one patch and says, "Hey, we're going to do this thing." And the community says, "No, no, no, we're going to do this other thing instead. We're going to fork the game into two separate worlds."

Rob: So the possibilities here are going to be insane what we're gonna see with gaming on blockchain and now of course on EOS. And I do have to mention one of them confirmed in the Mythical Games Telegram that they are planning on building on the EOS main net. So that makes the news even more exciting.

Zack: So I think what we're going to see here with the main net is we're seeing all these companies popping up, or projects popping up, who are going to be building on the main net. We're going to be cheering for transaction volume because once the REX is implemented and you're staking to the REX, your income from the REX is going to be tied to the number of transactions on the network. So you want the transactions to be really cheap because that's advantageous to the developers, so the only way to make money if the transactions are really cheap is to have a lot of transactions and that's what these games are going to bring. We need millions of transactions per day for real revenue to be distributed amongst the token holders on the REX.

Rob: I think REX will give us a real sort of a clear indication of what the current gaming demand actually is like on EOS. Because if you notice, anytime a CPU bump increases and suddenly people who have less EOS staked on their account can play again, we see things like a 20% or a 30% jump in the daily active users of EOS nights. You see these big moves up in terms of daily active users on EOS dapps when suddenly CPU is now cheaper, when you need less EOS stake to transact.

Rob: So once REX comes out and I can go in and lease a bunch of EOS for ten cents and make plenty of transactions, I think that number, all of those numbers across all the games are going to go much, much higher because now the people on the lower end of that spectrum who may have five, 10, 15 EOS staked can now play as much as they want. So I can't wait. It's going to be so awesome.

Zack: Yeah and it's frustrating on the game developer's side too. Pete, why don't you explain some of your issues you're running into just making some kind of hobbyist games at this point, on the issues you've run into with the resource costs.

Pete: Yeah, I mean, well what I was talking about earlier was actually EOS nights. I had all my EOS staked somewhere and didn't stake it to my active account and I was like, "You know what? Maybe 50 EOS will be good." So I unstaked 50 EOS and staked it to an active account and played EOS nights with it and still I'd run into occasional problems where the network got congested. I had to stake more and it hits you fast. You have enough for like 10,000 transactions and then suddenly you don't have enough to repair your item or whatever.

Pete: And I know we'll fix this and this is one of the things I wanted to say about building this future economy is that there's gonna be hiccups and failures and things along the way. We're experimenting, we're learning how to do something that no one's ever done before, but whenever there's a bad headline out there, whenever your CPU won't work for a couple of minutes, it's not a total failure. It's not the end of the line guys.

Rob: Definitely yeah. Well and these are things, I mean to your point, that is definitely a real issue, but there are things that are still almost like being experimented with on the chain. So we saw the initial CPU congestion threshold, which is, hey, when the network reaches this percent of what we think is total capacity, freak out and go into congestion mode and don't let anybody transact above what they're guaranteed on the network. And that was first 10%, then it was 20%, then it was 30%.

Rob: 30% caused some issues with missing blocks that BPs are still trying to figure out so now it's 25% again. But we're still kind of figuring out and like doing this weird dance of like, "Oh, we make this change here and now CPU does this or we make this change here and CPU goes down." So I think over time that will get better, but I'm really expecting REX to solve a lot of those issues for the long, long term.

Zack: Yeah. I'm looking forward to REX for not only those reasons but also to test out the referendum because I think like we've talked about in previous episodes, when the REX is first implemented by the BPs, it doesn't necessarily need a referendum until it starts touching the system funds from the name auction fees and the RAM trading fees. I think that'll be an awesome thing to see the whole community come together to vote this in on a referendum. That's what I'm looking forward to the most I think.

Rob: Definitely. Yeah. I mean if we were able to get the community together to unlock the chain, I can't imagine that they won't come together to get a bunch of free money out of the name fees and the name bidding and all that stuff.

Zack: That's my biggest question is, and I brought this up with Kevin and Myles, was how do we handle the fees that have accumulated from June 1st or whatever, June 3rd until today? So when we implement the REX it's going to start collecting these fees and pumping them into the REX to be redistributed as profits, but what do we do with the four months of EOS that's been accumulated from the RAM trading fees and the name auction fees up until this point? Do we burn it? Do we set it aside for a rainy day fund? I'm curious to see what the community comes up with on what to do with those funds.

Pete: More swag.

Zack: Yes.

Rob: Yeah, more backpacks to give out at the Hackathon. That's what we need. They must've bought it.

Zack: We're coming up on about an hour here boys and I want to really get this out for Thanksgiving. So I guess maybe we should say happy Thanksgiving to everyone watching if you're in the U. S. Rob, do you have anything to close out with?

Rob: Absolutely. Yeah, I would just say my personal thanks this Thanksgiving is just a huge thanks to, and this is genuine, huge thanks to the EOS community, whether you came up to us at the Hackathon, whether you leave a comment, whether you tweeted us on Twitter. It's just so cool to be a part of this community, so thank you to all you, thank you to the people at Block.One. If you're building something on EOS, thank you.

Zack: Pete, what are you thankful for?

Pete: I am thankful that Rob and I will soon be doing an episode on URI.

Rob: Yeah, I'm excited. It's gonna be good.

Pete: [crosstalk 00:56:03].

Zack: I thought that was funny. When people-

Rob: No, I'll definitely do it. I'll commit in public.

Zack: So we were at the scaling blockchain conference and this is like Pete's introduction to the ... I mean it was my first time with the EOS community in person too, but I kind of talked with a lot of these guys online and stuff. But they heard Pete's voice and they were like, "You sound familiar," because he did his URI podcast.

Pete: I talked with Rob. I talked with Rob from [inaudible 00:56:24], the team that won and he comes up to me like the last- Is it Rob?

Zack: Rob, yeah.

Pete: OKay it was Rob. Yeah. So many Robs. He comes up to me at like the last possible minute before I'm leaving scaling blockchain and he goes, "Are you Bitgenstein? I was wondering to myself, who's that guy I met?"

Zack: He's that crypto philosopher guy.

Pete: Who was that guy? So yeah.

Rob: Yeah, I'll have to listen to it again and then we'll go through the running, but I'll commit here in public. We'll definitely do that podcast and we'll debate it out and maybe you'll change my mind. I don't know, we'll see.

Pete: I'm open to change too. Like I said, it's all stumbling, and experimenting, and trying to figure out a better future.

Rob: Definitely, yeah.

Zack: And I'm thankful for the EOS technical and block producer community to kick White Block's ass in an upcoming debate that I don't think has been publicly announced, but there is currently being planned. Thomas Cox is going to be the middleman moderator of this, some very technical guys from the EOS community, mostly block producer teams and then two guys from White Block. We're going to be, not we, but they will be doing a live stream, I think on November 29th. Don't quote me on that, but it will be a live stream of running all of the CPU tests and all these different metrics that White Block had done on their own, but with the assistance of the EOS technical community to make sure it's fair.

Zack: There might be some stuff that we're not happy about with the results, but that's the game we're playing. We're creating a constructive conversation out of all of this so it's not just fud. So I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful to see that we could settle this as adults I guess instead of just pointing fingers at each other and saying you are or not a blockchain, and find that middle ground where we can agree.

Zack: We all want to revolutionize and upend industries here and we're all fighting the same battle. We just have different techniques of how we're going to get there. So I'm thankful that we'll kind of put some of this argument to rest on what is or isn't a blockchain and we'll kind of answer some unanswered questions from their research and hopefully find a common ground.

Zack: So I guess on that note, happy Thanksgiving to everyone watching in the U.S. Happy Thursday for everyone who's not in the U.S. and once again, I'm Zach Gall.

Pete: I'm Peter Keay.

Rob: And I'm Rob Finch.

Zack: And this is Everything EOS.


Topics: VR, Blockchain, Gaming, Podcast, Eos, Blockchain Technology, Podcasting, Everything Eos, Hackathons