Written by Zack Gall

Data Analyst at ICO Alert
November 10 2018

Everything EOS #32: EOS Hackathon, BancorX Cross-Chain Liquidity, Wax, and Whiteblock FUD

Rob and Zack discuss BancorX, the EOS Global Hackathon, WAX, as well as the controversial Whiteblock research report funded by Consensys.





Everything EOS is a podcast hosted by Rob Finch (Cypherglass) and Zack Gall (ICO Alert) that follows the EOS ecosystem: dApp spotlights, VC partnerships, announcements, and more!



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Zack: Welcome to episode 32 of Everything EOS. I'm Zach Gall, our in house EOS fanatic here at ICO Alert, the trusted ICO discovery platform. Visit ICOalert.com, the most complete calendar of all active and upcoming ICOs, and I'm here today with the founder and CEO of block producer Cypherglass, Rob Finch.

Rob: Thank you all so much for joining us onto the longest running weekly EOS podcast, Everything EOS. It is now episode 32, and a huge shout out to everybody that's been with us since episode one. If this is your first episode, welcome aboard. We're talking about everything EOS.

Rob: Once again, we sincerely appreciate the feedback and the comments that we get about the show. When we read your YouTube comments, or SoundCloud comments, or wherever you're leaving them, it makes us smile and gets us super hyped to do another awesome episode the next week. So please continue to let us know that you like the show by liking, following, or subscribing on YouTube, iTunes, SoundCloud, or wherever you may be listening.

Zack: I thought it would be cool this week as a thank you to everyone to kind of share some statistics about how you guys affect us. We love the comments, we love to know you guys are watching, but I just wanted to share some statistics from the month of October because it was kind of the first time I actually dove in and looked at how long people were spending watching what we have to say about the EOS community and what's going on with Block.one and everything like that.

Zack: So in the month of October we had a total of, between iTunes, SoundCloud, Google podcast, YouTube, everywhere we syndicate we had a total of 507,400 minutes of watch or listen time.

Rob: Wow, that's crazy.

Zack: That is equivalent to 8,456 hours watched of our faces or voices.

Rob: That's so cool. Wow.

Zack: How crazy is that? That's 352 full days.

Rob: Wow and that's just in one month?

Zack: One month.

Rob: Wow, so you guys are watching a year of content in one month. That's pretty amazing.

Zack: So everyone talks about making their crypto gains, right? So we got at least 10 to 100x on their time per episode, so-

Rob: I love it, that's awesome.

Zack: ... for every episode I probably spend a couple hours preparing and post production, but every episode we get 88 complete days of watch or listen time from the EOS community.

Rob: Wow. That's wild. A huge shout out to everybody that's making that possible.

Zack: Yeah, thank you to everybody.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: This is awesome.

Rob: And if you're one of the many that are sharing this on your social media, on Twitter and Telegram, thank you so much. We couldn't have done it without you.

Zack: And as a second reminder subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. Because we want to have a full year of watch time in the month of November.

Rob: Yeah, let's do it. Now before we get started, I do need to mention that this is not a sponsored podcast, but I do need to disclose that Zack Gall and I do hold EOS tokens. We're going to be talking about some other stuff today and also disclose that I do hold BNT tokens, I hold DICE tokens, I hold SEED tokens, and IQ for good measure.

Zack: I don't know if I hold all those. I probably do, but not nearly as much. I hold some DUST, but yeah, I probably own some of those too. I could disclose in the description if that's what we're going to start doing.

Rob: There we go. So there's our disclosure. We've been doing that anytime we talk about it, but beyond that, please remember that as we're expressing our opinion about EOS and about all of these different projects, please do not interpret our opinions as legal, financial, tax, professional, or any other kind of advice. We're just talking about our opinion and you should always do your own due diligence before you make any financial decision.

Zack: And on today's episode, we're going to once again be discussing hackathon updates for the last time. Next time will be a summary of what happened.

Rob: Oh yeah. I'm excited for that.

Zack: Oh yeah. The launch of BancorX, WAX, some recent FUD and a live gift opening from SVK Crypto.

Rob: We got it right here.

Zack: You got to flip it around, Rob.

Rob: There it is. It's got The SVK Crypto sticker on it and everything for the live SVK reveal.

Zack: The official sticker, you can't even buy these on Ebay.

Rob: You can't. Right here. Coming up later on the podcast.

Zack: Limited edition and we have much more also after the transition. Let's go.

Rob: So we're starting off with a bit of a sad note today, but Gall you brought this to my attention. Why don't you kick it off?

Zack: Yeah. So we just want to put our thoughts and prayers out to Stan Larimer, Dan Larimer's dad. About a week ago he was hospitalized, put into critical care, but he is in stable condition. Not much is really known about what happened, but the family requests privacy on this. We were all excited for the BEOS chain to launch, I think this week. So that's going to be delayed a little bit, but we just want to say thoughts and prayers for the Larimer family.

Rob: We just wanted to take this moment at the start to just wish our warm wishes to Stan and the entire Larimer family.

Zack: All right, let's open that gift.

Rob: Yeah, let's do it.

Zack: I want to know what we got man, I hope it's a tee shirt.

Rob: I do too. It said ... So here it is from SVK Crypto, straight out of London.

Zack: Live.

Rob: Let's see what we got.

Zack: Oh, we got a box. Wow.

Rob: Ooh, a black ribbon.

Zack: Oh, wow.

Rob: Oh, this is fancy. You've outdone yourselves. I know this is coming from Shane and Charles and maybe some of the other SVK team. Let's see. If you're not familiar, SVK Crypto is actually one of the investment funds as a part of Block.one's billion dollar dev fund. They run a $50 million fund looking for devs to invest in. Oh wow. Here we go.

Zack: Yes, exactly what I wanted.

Rob: We got some cards. A little note here.

Zack: Oh man, is it my size? No, it's definitely too small.

Rob: I love it. "All that we asked for is that you wear the tee shirt with love and send us a picture of you rocking it." Signed Charles Story and Shane Kehoe. Thank you so much.

Zack: Charles, Shane, this is a large.

Rob: I got a large as well.

Zack: You probably don't want to see me wearing a large.

Rob: I'll take it.

Zack: But I will make sure ... I'll try it on. We'll see.

Rob: There it is. I'm sure we can pick you up an XL in San Francisco when they're there.

Zack: I think this would be a good time to show myself. So not only will I, if I fit this, wear this on a future episode, but anyone else including Cypherglass, who wants to give me a free tee shirt, whether in San Francisco or via mail, I'd be happy to wear it on an episode.

Rob: All right.

Zack: Free of charge.

Rob: All right, I'll keep that in mind.

Zack: Instead of wearing these button up shirts or whatever else, we wear hoodies every day, I'm going to start wearing some block producer shirts if you guys want to clothe me.

Rob: See what you've done Shane and Charles? You see what you've done?

Zack: Oh yeah. I've been wanting to make this announcement for a long time, so thanks for facilitating the shill.

Rob: Yeah, in all seriousness, huge shout out to SVK Crypto. Can't wait to see you guys in San Francisco this weekend for the hackathon and thank you for the shirts.

Zack: Yeah thanks.

Rob: I'll definitely be sporting that.

Zack: Appreciate that.

Rob: Oh actually this is a good time to mention really quickly, there was a photo that Shane actually sent me and posted in the SVKCrowd Telegram group of-

Zack: The same shirt.

Rob: ... Sam Kazemian from Everipedia, you may know him from there, with the SVK Crypto shirt on, but right next to the very own Dr. Dre. So Dr. Dre himself was there.

Zack: Maker of Beats headphones.

Rob: Yeah, sold it to Apple for $3 billion.

Zack: Not an advertisement.

Rob: Not an endorsement, but pretty cool to see them all together. Everipedia and that team through [inaudible 00:06:36] has some connections through Genius where [inaudible 00:06:37] founded. So they're kind of in the music industry, but it was cool to see all of them, including SVK meeting with Dr. Dre. So who knows what will come out of that.

Zack: So how excited are you for the hackathon?

Rob: Oh my goodness.

Zack: So since last week some big news. Tickets are now sold out.

Rob: Completely sold out.

Zack: Completely sold out. We've been talking about this for weeks, but the venue has a maximum capacity of 1100 people. That doesn't mean they sold 1100 tickets.

Rob: Right, because you've got mentors, you have staff, you have other people.

Zack: Yeah and then for the presentations on Sunday, you have to have an audience.

Rob: Exactly.

Zack: But I think this one might be bigger than London, which was I think between 500 and 600 participants.

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm excited, that also means that the final ceremony is sold out. So even if you're coming to San Francisco, you weren't participating, you're just sort of in the area and want to come see who wins and see the award ceremony, you don't get a ticket to that. So that means that's completely sold out. So I can't wait to see this venue as they've had pretty awesome venues in the past and it should be a pretty fun time.

Zack: So last week we spent a good bit of time talking about some newly announced judges.

Rob: Yeah we did.

Zack: And this is the second time it happened where we record an episode, we talk about a bunch of stuff, the next day I'm looking for the graphics, and I go onto the site and I find something new. The first time I found out that a venue was selected for the hackathon because at the time there was no venue. We talked for 10 minutes about how there wasn't a venue.

Rob: Yeah. As soon as they put it up, that was pretty crazy.

Zack: Then this time we talked about the judges and I noticed Mike Novogratz added to the judges.

Rob: Oh yeah. Galaxy Digital, great guy. I can't wait to meet him in San Francisco.

Zack: $325 EOS VC funds. So how big is that for the hackers and participants in this context?

Rob: Oh that's huge. I mean, one of the core parts of the hackathon is to allow the winners to then pitch a panel of people who are part of the EOS VC ecosystem. So I'm sure Novogratz, if you're out there and you win the hackathon, you're going to be pitching to him.

Zack: So it's basically like you're making it to the grand finale without even qualifying because you're getting in front of Novogratz. Now want to talk about the other one?

Rob: Yeah.

Zack: So one other big one and then two that I haven't done as much research on.

Rob: Yeah. So that's pretty interesting. Mike Lempres, who I would never expect to actually be in the hackathon judges table, but the Chief Policy Officer at Coinbase, formerly I believe the Chief Legal Officer at Coinbase, one of the people who was instrumental in sort of writing that framework for which tokens get listed, which tokens don't on Coinbase is actually going to be a judge at the U.S. hackathon. So it'll be really interesting to see what comes out of that. Maybe they're just getting friendly with Coinbase. Maybe they have an announcement. We'll see, but it should be cool.

Zack: So when Coinbase?

Rob: That's the question, isn't it? We'll see. I don't know. I mean if you look at that, I posted a video on the Cypherglass YouTube channel awhile ago called something to the effect of what you don't know about the Poloniex Circle Listing when they actually listed EOS, and it had to go through a legal framework and approval framework very similar to Coinbase's legal framework in the U.S. and it got approved. So I think EOS is, it has the potential to actually go through Coinbase's program and also get approved.

Zack: Yeah. I mean we've seen Basic Attention Token got listed this week, ZRX got listed. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility for EOS to eventually get listed, but it'll be in with alongside a lot of other really good projects and tokens as well. So it's so overly due.

Rob: The elephant in the room is, will we get an EOS on Coinbase announcement at the hackathon? I don't know. I would say probably not. That doesn't seem like the place they would announce that, but who knows? We'll see.

Zack: So you made an interesting point about the legal framework. Last November, December Coinbase published their framework of acceptable tokens that they'd be willing to list, and at that time we talked about it. We said EOS should meet all of these qualifications, but it was a way, way long time ago. But since then, Lee Schneider, so one of the Block.one hires back in May, he was hired as a-

Rob: General counsel.

Zack: ... global general counsel. He actually co-authored a security law framework for blockchain tokens, which was developed by Coinbase. So that's the tie in.

Rob: I feel like we've talked about that once before. That's so interesting.

Zack: So I mean there is some Coinbase connections, but it's just an exchange listing. We're trying to prove utility of the token and exchange is a short term thing, but I think mainstream adoption is going to require much, much more than exchange listings, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. It adds an air of legitimacy to a token.

Rob: Well and I think it adds a very easy fiat on-ramp. So one of the things right now about EOS is that there aren't that many fiat on-ramps. Of course Kraken and some others have USD pairs against it where you can just link your bank account and buy some. But to get it on a Coinbase, to get it on a Gemini, platforms like that will really open up and just make it much easier to actually get USD into the U.S. ecosystem. So it will be very cool to see, it may not happen now, but I think eventually I agree.

Zack: Yeah and I think that's what we talked about with the Circle app. That's why I was the most excited because the Circle app is another fiat on-ramp.

Rob: Definitely. Yeah. Well and I think to your point about proving utility, I think that US blockchain, out of pretty much any blockchain, has proved its utility the most. More than anybody else with all of these dapps, with people leasing out CPU on Shintai and other platforms. The utility is there and it's pretty exciting.

Zack: Outside of the judges, another big announcement this week is that Brendan Blumer is going to be leading the opening ceremony.

Rob: Yes. Yeah, I'm so excited.

Zack: So I guess that's Saturday afternoon, morning?

Rob: Yeah. I assumed there was going to be some kind of opening ceremony, but of course didn't think Brendan Blumer was going to lead it. He or Dan, I think Dan maybe led it in London. Of course, I missed that due to illness, but super excited to see that. Maybe he'll give us some insight into what they're working on next. Maybe we see a roadmap finally. I don't know.

Zack: I mean, I want to get some news, whether it's an official announcement or just some hearsay around the hackathon.

Rob: Definitely.

Zack: So in addition to the hackathon, the hackathon is going to be Saturday and Sunday, November 10th and 11th. On November 12th, that's the Monday following, is the scaling blockchain conference. I highly advise anyone coming to the hackathon to also make it to the scaling blockchain conference. There are some other events going on over the course of the weekend. On Friday there's the shEOS, they're doing a workshop on the EOS 21 Protocol and then there's a social gathering. I can't read the graphic, but if you go on Twitter you'll see this graphic being shared everywhere. I think EOS BlockSmith and Lumeos put it out.

Zack: All right, so big news this week. We had a major, major product launch this week.

Rob: Oh, absolutely.

Zack: BancorX. You want to talk about what BancorX is for a minute?

Rob: Yeah. So BancorX is pretty significant, and we're about to release a video on the Cypherglass YouTube channel about this as well. So youtube.com/cypherglass if you want to see that.

Rob: But BancorX, it's commonly referred to as a decentralized exchange, but it's really much more than that, and it's different in a couple ways. The first is that it's not a decentralized exchange so much as it is a decentralized liquidity network. So basically what that means is that for any token listed on the website, generally on an exchange if I'm going to sell a token, I need somebody to offer to buy it, otherwise I can't make that sale.

Rob: But with Bancor, if I want to sell a token, I can sell it even if there isn't a buyer because each smart token, is what they call it, has what's basically a reserve underneath the token. So if I go in, and I want to sell a token, I take some EOS out of that reserve, and the price of that token drops a little bit. If I want to buy a token, I add some EOS into that token's reserves and the price goes up a little bit. So it's an algorithmically driven exchange.

Zack: Yeah, it kind of takes on some aspects of a derivative almost.

Rob: Almost, yeah. It's interesting and the utility of the BNT token is that anytime you do a transfer between any two tokens, it actually goes through BNT and now what's so significant about BancorX beyond adding all of this liquidity to Airdrops, and EOS tokens ,and all these different projects-

Zack: Cross-Chain.

Rob: Cross-Chain which is crazy. For the first time, two major blockchains have been linked, Ethereum and EOS, and now, and I've did this, I transferred a bunch of Ethereum BNT over to EOS and EOS BNT through their relay and it worked great. It was amazing.

Zack: This is super interesting also because my usual work outside of podcasting and ICO Alert is we categorize tokens and projects based on what blockchain they're on. So now this is one of the first time ... It's the first time as far as I know of a token. So if I wanted to categorize the BNT token, I not only got to categorize it as an Ethereum token on the Ethereum blockchain, but also an EOS token. And this is kind of unheard of, but it's what needs to happen for mainstream adoption. We can't have a bunch of siloed blockchains that can't communicate with each other.

Rob: 100%.

Zack: And first we saw shEOS, they created the EOS 21 Protocol, which allowed the Cross-Chain transfer, but BancorX just took it to a whole nother level. So what's cool about BancorX is it allows you to trade tokens without a base currency essentially. So most people are used to trading for EOS, or Ethereum, or whatever pair you like to trade with. You either trade with a USD pair or a Bitcoin pair or maybe an Ethereum pair. But now you could trade let's say a Karma token for a Black token. Or a Karma token for Ethereum now, or a Karma token for ZRX. So what I see happening is all of these games that, for now the casino games for instance, they should be able to take at some point any ERC20 token, or any EOS token or US itself, and be able to basically do an instant swap into whatever the base currency of that dApp is, and then they could make payouts the same way. It could have an instant swap where it pays you out. Everyone gets paid out in the same currency, even if they paid with a different currency, and the swaps are all happening-

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: In the background, through the bank.

Rob: The implications for something like this, with the cross-chain link between, this cross-chain bridge, are just wild. And I think, to your point, we're going to see so many people using this and utilizing this relay to kind of build on top of it and make for new dApps. So now if you're a dApp on Ethereum, you can stay, keep your existing user-base that likes to use Ethereum, that prefers that over EOS, maybe they haven't used EOS yet. But you can also launch on top of EOS, take advantage of the network effects there, take advantage of the massively growing community on EOS, and just run both. And then if it turns out that all your users migrate over to the EOS version, that's fine. If they want to use the Eth version, that's fine too. But at least you can have both, and you'll end up having a broader reach for your dApp and in the end you'll have more users, more volume, all the stuff you need to have to make your dApp successful.

Zack: I think it's great for both EOS and Ethereum.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: So, we're sometimes a little harsh on Ethereum.

Rob: Right, yeah. That's because, and to address that really quickly, I think Ethereum, while they've added major contributions of blockchain space, just as Bitcoin and all these other projects. But Ethereum still is a benchmark. I mean, if you look at Ethereum as the top smart contracting platform by market cap, they're a benchmark. So when you pass them in things like daily active users, when you pass them in things like dApp volume and actually trading volume, that's a serious benchmark, and it's something that should be celebrated. And it can be celebrated without putting the other team down and making them feel bad, so just wanted to touch on that.

Zack: And it allows an Ethereum dApp to technically be scalable in the short-term. So you could use your ERC20 tokens, you can hold them in your Ethereum wallet, but if you want to use the dApp, it could be integrated with the bank core relay, and basically be using EOS token, on the back-end all kinds of EOS transactions, but don't ever get paid back your tokens, you're actually getting paid back in your ERC20 tote.

Rob: If that's what they choose.

Zack: If that's what they choose to do. So that's really cool. That's really, really big news. Sets one Ethereum project that's kind of hybrid, moving over to EOS. And then there was another big Ethereum project that recently launched their EOS-based project, and that's the WAX blockchain.

Rob: Oh yeah, that's right.

Zack: You want to talk about WAX for a minute? The new transaction champ?

Rob: So WAX right now is a fork of EOS, which means it's completely separate from EOS main net and isn't linked right now. However in the future, I do expect WAX to eventually link as a side chain to the EOS blockchain, just with their own token and on token economics and everything. But WAX is essentially, if you think of EOS as a general purpose platform, where you can build any kind of DAP you want. You can build an exchange, you can build a game, you can build a movie leasing platform. You can do whatever you want on top of EOS. WAX is a little more niche, and a little more limited in that they're focused specifically on games. So basically I mean, WAX is essentially, you could technically tokenize anything, but it's designed or sort of focused on tokenizing in-game items for games. So you could have WAX in a centralized game, and tokenize the items in it, or you could have you know, similar DAPS that are running on EOS, running on [inaudible 00:18:29].

Zack: I remember back, when did they announce the EOS stuff? It was like back in April or May. And people got kind of mad, because it was the first EOS fork. So it didn't really, people didn't really see the benefit of the EOS main net. But what these forks allow to happen, we're talking Talos, Worbli and any future forks, including WAX, is there are certain core aspects to the system contract of the EOS main net that can't be changed to fit the specific needs and use cases of other applications. So what WAX needed to do, was they needed to fork the EOS IO chain and add their own features. Because instead of block fusers they used, do you remember the term that they used?

Rob: I don't know. But I wasn't, to be honest, completely convinced by their article, saying that they like, it seemed to me that the things that they wanted added onto EOS could have been built through smart contracts on top of the EOS main net. But I do understand from the perspective of them continuing their token economics, they have all these token holders on a theorem with their own token. So if they were to just build on the EOS main net, the WAX token would have a lot less utility. So they are almost forced to have their own side chain, right now a fork, where that token is then the resource token. It's the core utility token versus using EOS as their core utility.

Zack: And for those who aren't aware of like the people behind WAX, WAX stands for World Asset Exchange. Like Rob said, it has to do with in-game trading of items, or any virtual items essentially. But it's developed by the founders of a company called OP Skins, and they are the world's leading marketplace for video game assets. So when you talk like counter-strike skins, what other type of in-game stuff do they trade? Because I'm not really into this stuff.

Rob: It's mostly focused around counter-strike. So there was a big controversy on YouTube several years ago where I found out about all this, 'cause YouTubers have the platform. And anyway, but it's mostly counter-strike skins, there are some other games that are very popular, I think Team Fortress Two, you can sell skins and hats and items and stuff. But mostly limited to those, I don't think you can trade newer items like fortnite skins and things like that.

Zack: I think skins, skins-

Rob: Yeah, anyway, I mean it's a real marketplace. If you look for example, at the amount of money that Fortnite brings in every month-

Zack: Oh my God.

Rob: Like a million dollars on one-time use skins. So the cool thing about skins compared to like an in-game item is, like you're familiar with War of Warcraft. Like there's different items that make your character better, stronger and harder to kill. But skins are just to personalize your character. They don't give you any advantage at all.

Zack: It's not like a play to win, it's just a purely cosmetic change that makes a character look cooler, or whatever.

Rob: So it's like buying clothes or makeup for your character essentially.

Zack: Exactly.

Rob: Well, and if you think about in the future, right now people spend as much money on skins when you know, you're just playing on your computer, you have a screen, you don't have a ton of personal identity associated with that virtual character. But in the future when we're all in VR and high fidelity, and have headsets on, there's going to be a lot more weight put on what skin you have and what customizations you have on your character, that are linked more to your personal identity. So I expect in the long, long term that skins and this type of virtual customization will be in very high demand.

Zack: I'm actually looking at block activity right now. EOS is neck and neck with WAX right now, that have passed it for the most daily transaction volume. But I'm happy with any of them winning.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: Right now, as we speak, WAX is number one on daily activity, followed by EOS, Bitshares and Steam. All built on top of the graphene technology that Stan and Dan Larrimer invented back in what, 2013, 14?

Rob: It's been a while, yeah.

Zack: It's been a while. So we're really happy about that and just to go back to April or May, whenever we talked about this the first time, but a quote from the WAX team, whenever they announced their fork, they said their engineering team performed a detail of six chains, and mind you, they're already on Ethereum, so we could assume Ethereum is one of them. ARK, EOS, LISK, Tendermint, NEM, and NEO. So they compared all of these different chains, all the different abilities of the chains to meet their specific needs, and they still chose EOS.

Rob: Yeah.

Zack: So that's a huge stamp of approval-

Rob: Oh absolutely.

Zack: From a team who was familiar with Ethereum and all of these other chains they looked into, and they still chose EOS for a variety of different reasons.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: That, and honestly can lead us into the next topic.

Rob: Definitely. And I think to touch on what one of those things might be, honestly, lack of transaction fees. If you look at all these other platforms that they compared against, NEM, Tendermint, LISK, EOS, ARK, not EOS of course, NEO and ARK, they all have transaction fees. So if you want to trade a ten cent digital item, are you going to pay a sixty cent transaction fee just to process it? No, you're going to use EOS and it's going to be totally free.

Zack: Very true. So everyone at this point probably knows about the White Block, the research that came out. You want to kind of explain what it was?

Rob: Yeah. So there was this big article that came out, sort of coincidentally, or I guess suspiciously, across several different crypto-news outlets at the same time. Basically claiming that EOS is not a blockchain, that it's just glorified cloud-server hosting, glorified Amazon web services, which ultimately after people write it, I read it, a bunch of people went through it, really prominent members of the EOS community, and even the general crypto community came out and sort of disputed it and dismissed it. But it basically boiled down to what the definition of a blockchain was. And they defined a blockchain in very narrow terms that only qualified basically proof of work blockchains, like Bitcoin and Ethereum.

Rob: So based on the Consensus mechanism, the mechanism through which people reach Consensus and [inaudible 00:23:26] which transactions are valid. Based on that Consensus mechanism, they were saying it has to be this exact mechanism in order for it to be a blockchain. Just because EOS uses a more efficient, more robust, more Byzantine fault tolerant Consensus mechanism, doesn't mean that it's suddenly not a blockchain. So totally preposterous article, but it's interesting, you found out a little bit about who's behind it.

Zack: Yeah. So everyone, it's a well-known fact that Consensus or some sort of Ethereum foundation was behind it, but just so everyone can better understand who Consensus is, and then I guess the proof is in the pudding. I'll throw up some graphics right now. So the article is written by four authors and it was published under a company called White Block, which is a blockchain research and metricing company. But anytime you write academic research or any type of research, the order that you print the author's name in, are the order of their contributions.

Rob: Oh, interesting.

Zack: And the first two contributors to this research is Brent Zoo, who I'll pull up his background on the screen now, he's a Consensus employee, and Drew Luthra, who is also a Consensus employee, followed by two White Block employees, Zach Cole and Nate Blakely. So I'm not going to try to argue the technicalities of their research, because I do think that they did do these tests. But they wrote the tests. And they-

Rob: They defined, they set the parameters of what a blockchain is-

Zack: And they didn't factor in the community. The community is EOS essentially. The technology itself without the community behind it is a completely different animal than in a lab setting. But I just didn't understand why if the two lead researchers and the two main primary authors of their research, if they were from Consensus, why didn't this research come out under the Consensus name?

Rob: Yeah. Probably to try to get away from the fact that it is funded by Consensus.

Zack: And the reason is because most people don't actually download the pdf and read the actual research. They read all of the headlines that said, EOS is not a blockchain.

Rob: Yeah. Study proves EOS is not a blockchain. Just ridiculous.

Zack: It's all about a definition. I'm not going to argue the definition. But, for those who don't know, Consensus is, straight from their website, a venture production studio focused on building and scaling tools, disruptive startups, and enterprise software product, powered by decentralized technology, specifically Ethereum.

Rob: Oh yeah. Well if you look at one of the co-founders of Ethereum, Joe Lubin, he has been instrumental in the success and the founding of Consensus. As an organization they've run tons of Ethereum ICOs and have been big in the Ethereum community. So it's obvious what's coming.

Zack: It's interesting that on Halloween we didn't announce on our Halloween episode that it was the ten year anniversary of the Bitcoin whitepaper.

Rob: Oh, right.

Zack: Which is a big deal. And as part of that ten year anniversary, do you remember back in 2008 when everyone said that the banks were too big to fail?

Rob: Oh yeah. Absolutely. That was why-

Zack: I think that's Ethereum's situation right now. They're too big to fail.

Rob: Oh, interesting.

Zack: It's a very interesting, it's a nice correlation, but it's obviously different than banking.

Rob: Right, different industry.

Zack: They've grown to be such a monstrosity, with such a market cap, so much money at stake-

Rob: Yeah.

Zack: That they're just defending themselves against-

Rob: It makes complete sense. I mean if you look at, life is really all about incentives. If you look at why Warren Buffett hates Bitcoin, it's because a huge percent, like 40% of Berkshire Hathaway's investments are in companies like Visa and MasterCard and the current intermediaries in the payment space. So of course he doesn't like it. If you look at why Joseph Lubin doesn't like EOS, because the super majority of his net worth is tied up in Ethereum and many liquid Ethereum projects that he currently can't get out of. So I mean of course he's going to sit there and defend it.

Zack: Yeah. And we're going to defend EOS just the same. We have to understand where we're coming from and where they're coming from, and where our incentives are. Our [inaudible 00:27:12] incentives were EOS Maximus in a way, so we're going to defend EOS. But I'm all open to reading other people's research, calling out EOS for its flaws.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: If they want to call us out for not ratifying a constitution yet, for not having a referendum tool yet, there's a lot of things, CPU, there's a lot of things you can complain about that's going on in the EOS mainnet, we're working on it, but if you called out all of those flaws in a research article, by all means do it. We accept the criticism.

Rob: Oh, absolutely. Well that not only helps people know and understand what the flaws are, so that then they can go fix them. Great example again, CPU because of all the DAP usage that's happening, CPU again hit congestion mode recently. So right now as we speak, there's an active proposal from EOS New York and few other BPs to, once again, bump up that congestion mode variable we talked about, a few episodes ago, from 20% now to 30%. So boom, again, it will free up more CPU. So if you're out there, by the time you're listening to this, it should have already been approved I would assume. But if not, go and bug your VP's to vote approval on that.

Zack: So, and just to finish up with the White Block stuff, Thomas Cox wrote a great rebuttal.

Rob: Oh, absolutely.

Zack: I'm going to link his medium article in the description here. He basically refuted some of the arguments made in the research. And the one that I can refute, I don't understand everything as far as the technicalities of it. But the one thing that stood out to me as the most BS was that quote, in the research, transaction through-put in the system does not exceed 250 transactions per second.

Rob: When, on a live blockchain, we have proven, we've done nearly 4,000 in transactions per second on the live EOS mainnet. And that's not even at full capacity. It could go way beyond that. So it's crazy. I mean, are they running this on old hardware to hit 250 transactions per second? It's crazy.

Zack: I don't understand it.

Rob: Not to mention-

Zack: That was the one thing that I looked and I was like well, I don't know everything about the technology of a blockchain and how it works to the T at that level, but I do know how many transactions per second we've got through-putting.

Rob: Not to mention the fact that when you're running it in a local environment like they were for the test, you should have higher throughput because you don't deal with latency and having to ping all these different block places around the world. And in a live distributed environment, we've demonstrated thousands, so it's just crazy.

Zack: I don't have it in the notes, but I think they had a second number. That was in their test environment, the 250. And I think it was even lower in like a production environment.

But anyway, obviously, very easy to see through and I really liked Brendan Bloomer's tweet, to kind of wrap this up. He said, EOS is built working backwards from the needs of those wanting to release demanding decentralized applications today. Our core devs remain internally focused and lack bandwidth to debate the definition of blockchain, or commission negative pieces on alternative approaches. So I love that response. Rather than coming out and wasting time, writing another article refuting it, they're saying look, we're proving to you in real-time, we've proved that we have more users of dApps, we proved there's more through, but we've proved all of these things. We're going to keep building, and prove you wrong in the field. So I love that response from Brendan.

Rob: I personally want Ethereum to succeed.

Zack: Absolutely.

Zack: There's a lot of blockchain backing today. I don't want everyone to lose their money.

Rob: Oh, absolutely.

Zack: I don't want all of the research and thought that went into getting Ethereum to where it is today to go to waste. I want everyone to succeed.

Rob: Yeah.

Zack: We see Bancore as a perfect example of more than one chain can succeed at a same time.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: It benefits both chains.

Rob: Well, and the combined network effect, assuming Bancor gets a lot of traction there with that cross chain, they're going to start sharing network effects, so all those people on Ethereum now have access to dApps very easily and vice versa. It should be great for both ecosystems.

Zack: So I guess while we're on the topic, let's finish smashing some [inaudible 00:30:38] here.

Rob: Let's do it.

Zack: You keep getting some [inaudible 00:30:41]. Why don't you explain this?

Zack: The other day I swear was come out and rag on Rob for trying to support the EOS ecosystem day in Telegram. It was crazy. And I totally respect these people's opinions. Everybody has a different opinion on gambling and whether or not they want to support it. But some people came out and said "Hey, I noticed that you disclosed legally, as you should, that you hold dice tokens and you're also out here talking about dice and the records that they're breaking, like doing a quarter billion dollars in volume in a week." And I'm like "Yes, I am. What's the problem with that?" And some people say "Well, I don't like gambling." Or "Oh, I think that's a conflict of interest because you hold the tokens and you're talking about it. You're bringing awareness to this project." And it blows my mind, honestly. I had conversations with multiple people in Telegram. A lot of people did come out and defend me, and I sincerely appreciate that.

Rob: The entire purpose, literally the reason why the EOS blockchain was created, was to build a centralized dApp.

Zack: To build dApps. Nobody complained when, you were harping on [inaudible 00:31:40] for months.

Rob: Oh my goodness. I've been out here-

Zack: Chasing chains, black tokens-

Rob: I've been doing air drops about this project and that project and all kinds of different exposure just to try to get more and more people to use EOS dApps. So when an EOS dApp comes out and breaks records like BetDice has done, of course then I'm gonna start going out and saying "Hey, have you seen BetDice and the records that they're breaking? Have you seen the fact that they've been using so much CPU that we've then had to figure out how to make CPU more efficient? That Dan then has to figure out how to come out and do a 2X increase on CPU?" The things that BetDice are doing, whether you like gambling or not, are incredible for the EOS ecosystem and the blockchain system as a whole. Because they're going out and they're breaking records. They're proving that EOS works. They're pushing EOS to the limits. And they really honestly have made a pretty unique token economic model that I'm a huge fan of.

Zack: Yeah, and I wanna give my piece because we just happened to air the commercial that some of my coworkers here at ICO Alert made. So we made a BetDice commercial. It's a 50-second explainer of what BetDice is. And the reason we did it, and people called us in the comments for it not being announced as a sponsored ad. BetDice didn't pay us to make that. We made it because we think it's a really cool app. And it shows the speed of EOS, and most importantly because it's a revenue model. All of these dApps, especially the gaming or gambling ones, they have great referral programs. Pixel Masters was the same way, and I wouldn't consider that gambling.

Zack: So basically my time's not free. I'm an employee at ICO Alert. This podcast is one part of my job. Nothing really funds this podcast, so as an additional revenue stream we figured we could use these referral codes to help fund some of this podcasting. Because we get asked all the time to do more episodes. The reason we can't do more episodes is because I don't have more time. I don't have more time because time is money.

Rob: Right.

Zack: And this isn't anything new. If you've ever heard of CPU Emergency, wanna explain what they do real quick?

Rob: Yeah. CPU Emergency is a great little company, cpuemergency.com. If you're in need of CPU, when we hit those congestion limits, you can go there, type in your account name and you get free CPU delegated to you.

Zack: So the reason I brought up CPU Emergency was because they don't really have as far as I know a profit model in their business. They give away CPU for free. They lend it out. Since they started partnering with these dice games, they are getting funded thousands and thousands of dollars based on their referral bonuses for people using the referral links to play these games.

Rob: Oh, it's amazing.

Zack: Nobody's calling out CPU Emergency for being terrible people. They're helping the ecosystem.

Rob: To our point, nobody got upset when I came out and said "Everipedia is awesome" and published dozens and dozens of new articles on Everipedia. Nobody got upset when I said "Hey, chains is bringing real airdrop liquidity to people who need to offload or wanna buy a big amount of these air drops." Nobody got upset about that. I understand if you don't like gambling. Never once have I endorsed gambling or said "Hey, go out and play this thing." Just talking about a project that I [inaudible 00:34:26].

Zack: And one thing that I will bring up is that was the best dApp commercial ever made. Shout out to content guys Ryan Dennis and Evan Schindler here at ICO Alert for putting that together.

Rob: Yeah, and [inaudible 00:34:38].

Zack: That was a great commercial. And you know what? We're, at the end of the day we're a data repository company. We work, we have a data API that we work with university researchers on to research blockchain businesses. But we're also a marketing company. And you know what? That wasn't a sponsored commercial. We did it on our own time. But BetDice, as a matter of disclosure, they are probably gonna run some marketing through our email campaigns or a banner on our website. So it turned into business. We are a for profit business.

Rob: Yeah.

Zack: And we never really hide that. We did the commercial on our own. It was a kick ass commercial.

Rob: Yeah, it was awesome.

Zack: And we'll probably do more.

Rob: There's one for [inaudible 00:35:16].

Zack: We [inaudible 00:35:18], we'll start doing them for other games. And we're not gonna ask permission to do them because they have the permissions built in with the referral programs. It's not uncommon in a YouTube description to see donation addresses to support a show you like. And it's not uncommon to see referral links as long as you're disclosing that it's a referral link. If you wanna support the show and you haven't signed up to an app yet, why not use a referral link? It's no big deal. It doesn't cost the end user anything [inaudible 00:35:43] the person who told you about it.

Rob: To sum it up, if you're upset with me for coming out here and talking about BetDice and the records they're breaking, if you don't like gambling, that's fine, I totally understand. I don't personally endorse or recommend anybody gamble either, and I've said that before. But beyond that, if you're upset with me just because I'm going out and supporting these dApps and bringing more attention to these dApps I'm sorry. There's nothing I'm gonna change to stop supporting these dApps. The entire purpose of EOS, the reason it was invented, the reason why I get up so excited out of bed every day to work on EOD and help the EOS ecosystem flourish is because of dApps. That's why we're here is to build dApps. And I'm not gonna stop helping these dApps flourish. I'm not gonna stop bringing attention to dApps that are breaking records and making blockchain history. I'm just not. I'm not gonna stop doing it. And I appreciate the feedback and I appreciate everybody that came out in my Telegram DMs and even in the public and said "Hey Rob, keep doing what you're doing, we love what you do for the ecosystem," because it's gonna keep happening.

Zack: And it's a well known fact that the two leading industries in any emerging technology are gambling and pornography.

Rob: Absolutely.

Zack: It happened from beta tapes to VHS and from VHS to DVDs, to virtual reality. They're always leading the pack. And this is just a normal market cycle. Gambling dApps just happen to be the most used ones currently. And there's plenty of non gambling dApps we're gonna talk about and do talk about.

Rob: Somebody tweeted me and said "Hey, I wish it wasn't all gambling dApps." There are some other cool games you can play now. And they said "Do you think it'll be gambling dApps forever?" Absolutely not.

Zack: No.

Rob: This is how it starts [inaudible 00:37:12] gains traction. We're gonna see some pretty amazing things, things that aren't even games, things that are apps we couldn't even conceive of in the past because we didn't have a platform like EOS to build on that are gonna come out and are frankly gonna change the world.

Zack: If gambling dApps continue to be the most played and biggest dApps on EOS, then EOS is a failure.

Rob: Oh, absolutely. If that was all it was, absolutely.

Zack: If we can't strive over the next couple of months to years surpass that so that a gambling that might not be even in the top 10 or 20, that's what success is gonna look like. If we just look at gambling, that's a failure if that's all we have.

Rob: Definitely. And I don't think that will be all we have.

Zack: No.

Rob: I'm more confident now than ever in the EOS blockchain because of what these gambling dApps have proven it can do and proven we can increase limits, we can make CPU more efficient, then when multithreading comes out we'll have so many more possibilities. So cool to see these dApps breaking records on EOS. We're gonna keep supporting dApps.

Zack: That's enough for the FUDsters. This is the most we will ever address [inaudible 00:38:08]. But I didn't wanna ignore it because of the commercial coming out t the same time. Everyone knows Rob owns Dice Tokens. I own some dust from playing 10 years' worth on there. So I do own some dust. But let's talk about another really good project that's coming out. They're doing their airdrop and they've got a prototype released. You wanna talk about it?

Rob: Yeah. We have, I recorded a video on this also, the [inaudible 00:38:28] airdrop spotlight. Hire Vibes is essentially a job platform. So nothing new that we haven't seen, but they're adding a really interesting token incentive layer. So it's a job platform like anything where if you're looking for a job you go and you search things, you can apply, you can get hired. If you're an employer and you need employees you go on and post your job and get responses and can find somebody you're looking for. But what's cool about Hire Vibes is they're adding in these token bonuses for when you do get a job or for when you refer somebody and they get a job. So in addition to getting your new job and a great new salary, you may get five, six thousand dollars' worth of Hire Vibes tokens. As a bonus just for signing up and getting that job.

Rob: But what's cool is that similar to how BetDice distributes profit from their game to people who stake their dice tokens, Hire Vibes is doing a very similar sort of feedback loop where if you stake your Hire Vibes tokens in the future, once the full platform is released, you will actually get a bonus any time somebody's hired. So what this does is it creates an incredible incentive model-

Zack: Treats everyone like, there's a recruiting and headhunter model that exists in the current job industry. And some companies have it too, a finder's fee. So if I find an employee that my company hires, sometimes I will get a few hundred to a few thousand dollars bonus for finding that employee. And then headhunting companies work the same way, but they're getting paid by the hiring employer. So this is decentralizing that so that you don't have to be a recruiting agency to be able to monetize the recruitment of talent. Imagine going onto a job board like Indeed.com and you see a job that your best friend would be great for. You can send your best friend a link to that job using yourself as the referrer, and if they follow through with their application and interview process and get hired, you get that finder's fee even though you have nothing to do with that company. All you did was you helped them find talent.

Rob: It creates an incredible incentive loop where then I'm going out even if I don't give them my referral code, I'm still gonna get paid as somebody who's holding and staking Hire Vibes tokens, because it's all gonna go into one big pool. So when I go out and I tell my 20 cousins who are looking for jobs, "Hey, use Hire Vibes, you need a blockchain job specifically," and I honestly think that this platform could eventually become the place where you go to find a blockchain job or to hire a blockchain developer. So I'm super excited about it. If you go there now, even in their current beta version, you can sign up and check it out. Everipedia is hiring for a real job and several other cryptocurrency companies are hiring. So pretty cool platform, and we'll have a demo video coming out on the YouTube channel soon as well.

Zack: All right. So we gotta keep this one short. Probably won't be as many graphics as usual. Because I do have a lot to do before going out to San Fran. Do you have anything that you wanna add to this?

Rob: I think the only other thing I wanna add is both of us will be there at the hackathon in San Francisco and the events following, so if you wanna know what's going on as it's happening, follow me on Twitter @finchify.

Zack: And me at @blockchainzack with a K. There it is. And we'll keep you updated. And for any block producers listening or any dApp developers, I need T shirt. T shirts. T shirts. T shirts.

Rob: That's great.

Zack: I need a Cypherglass shirt, Rob. Do you even have a Cypherglass shirt? I've seen them on pictures from the U.S. Dublin event in Washington.

Rob: We do have Cypherglass shirts. We're actually looking at, there's another block producer who has sort of a for charity, not for profit T shirt printing company. We're looking to get some printed through them. So you can get them online, and all proceeds go to charity.

Zack: All right.

Rob: And 'll be sure to get you one as well.

Zack: And I wear XL if I want it to fit me properly.

Rob: All right. And I wear a large.

Zack: All right. We'll see some of you guys in San Francisco. Be sure to say hello. I'll be at as many of the social events as possible as well as the hackathon.

Rob: I'm super excited. It should be awesome. I can't wait.

Zack: I'll be recording plenty of content, so you'll probably be seeing some random short form content coming out all throughout the weekend. Follow me on Twitter or on the ICO Alert YouTube channel. But this closes out this week's show. Once again, I'm Zack Gall.

Rob: I'm Rob Finch.

Zack: And this is Everything EOS. San Fran.


Topics: Dapps, Bancor, Podcast, Eos, Podcasting, Everything Eos, Hackathons, Block Producer