It's a special HallowEOS episode of Everything EOS!
Rob and Zack celebrate HallowEOS with an epic fight scene against Ethereum before discussing their predictions around the challenge for the SF hackathon, virtual reality / gaming on blockchain, sister chains, and sidechains.
Everything EOS is a podcast hosted by Rob Finch (Cypherglass) and Zack Gall (ICO Alert) that follows the EOS ecosystem: dApp spotlights, VC partnerships, announcements, and more!
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Zack: Welcome to the 31st edition of Everything EOS coming to you on October 31st in celebration of HallowEOS, I'm Zack Gall our in-house EOS-
Rob: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, today's HallowEOS?
Zack: Well I mean it's Tuesday-
Rob: I thought it was tomorrow, yeah.
Zack: Yeah, but you know it takes me time to edit this and do post-production like this is gonna come out on Halloween.
Rob: Hold on.
Zack: What are you doing, oh.
Rob: I'll be right back.
Zack: What the heck, Rob, where'd you go?
Rob: Thank goodness for the ShEOS 21 teleportation protocol, got my costume. That was so easy.
Zack: Where'd you come from?
Rob: I'll explain later I need to go find something else.
Zack: So, no, what about me? You get to make a grand entrance.
Rob: Oh you know.
Zack: I'll be right back.
Zack: Oh yeah, the Macho EOS Man, for everything EOS.
Rob: I have never seen-
Zack: You thought you were the only one that can make a grand entrance.
Rob: Oh I've never seen-
Zack: Do you want a slim jim?
Rob: A little too scary for me, whoa, whoa.
Zack: Snap into a Slim Jim.
Rob: Who that snap is a little too intense, oh I've never seen somebody body slam someone like that especially Ethereum, wow.
Zack: Come on man it's Halloween, let's get to this here.
Rob: Let's get to this episode.
Dr. Bitgenstein: You fools, you have dumped my bag of shit coins in the toilet.
Zack: It's a bear market man, chill out.
Dr. Bitgenstein: I am Dr. Bitgenstein and I have the plan to bring the markets back from the dead. No seriously, let's do an episode about it. Universal basic income and universal resource inheritance, special edition coming out next week on Bitgenstein’s Table and Everything EOS.
Zack: All right man enough games it's time to get serious now.
Rob: Whoo I guess so.
Zack: Can we get serious, let's get the stache off.
Rob: Yeah, let me hold on, oh ...
Zack: All right.
Rob: Oh let me just put that here, Oh feels nice to breathe air again that portal was pretty crazy, but Chios has done a great job in designing it so a lot of people should be commenting during the EOS.
Zack: All right so should we just kick it off from the top then huh?
Rob: I guess so.
Zack: All right welcome to the 31st edition of everything EOS coming to you on October 31st in celebration of HallowEOS, I'm Zack Gall, our in-house EOS macho man and meme champion, at ICO Alert, the trusted ICO discovery platform icoalert.com, the most complete calendar of all active and upcoming ICOs. And I'm here today with the founder of Cypherglass an EOS.IO astronaut, Rob Finch.
Rob: Thank you all so much for joining us for this special fun addition of HallowEOS here on the Everything EOS podcast. If you're just listening to this one I highly encourage you to go over to youtube and watch it, we got some awesome skits involved. You can see our beautiful costumes, I'm decked out in this full-on astronaut gear and we have the one the only.
Zack: The meme champ.
Rob: There he is the meme champ, Macho Man, Randy Savage, got his EOS gear going, looking pretty good. Anyway, if you've been watching this before we sincerely appreciate all the feedback and comments that we get about the show we cannot wait to read what you have to say about this episode it should be a fun one. But if you enjoyed it please let us know by liking following or subscribing to the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, SoundCloud, or wherever you may be listening.
Zack: I'm just gonna skip the reminder, guys just engage the post, please like and share if you liked it.
Rob: And before we get started, before we get out this piping hot, this smokin hot, fresh off the presses, every EOS episode I do have to remind you that is that goal and I ... wow, Macho Man Randy Savage and I both hold EOS tokens as a matter of disclosure, but please don't take any of the opinions we express throughout this episode as legal financial tax or professional advice. We're not giving out advice here we're just talking about open source software that we love.
Zack: No financial advice, but I do love slim jims.
Rob: There it is.
Zack: All right, so today on today's podcast we're going to once again gonna be discussing more news and announcements around the EOS.IO hackathon coming up next weekend in San Francisco. A major EOS dApp that will be launching their beta this week, side-chains, sister chains, and more.
Rob: Oh yeah.
Rob: So kicking it off this week of course with our very special HallowEOS episode, we have to give a shout out to all of the amazing pumpkin submissions that we've seen it's been crazy.
Zack: I think I say the creepiest one of my life but it was also the most awesome thing and cool thing I've ever seen.
Rob: Yeah, let's put that one up on the screen right now for the people that are watching. I'm pretty proud that we're now memes on this person's pumpkin.
Zack: Why would anyone think we're memes, man? I don't get it.
Rob: I know it's not like ... how could they come up with this?
Zack: I'm the block talker skywalker with a microphone light saber educator.
Rob: I love it, but we have some amazing submissions if you go over and search HallowEOS, H-A-L-L-O-W-E-O-S on twitter you can see them all, we have EOS right here smoking Ethereum literally smoking Ethereum it's pretty clever. SPKcrypto put out one of their awesome submissions this morning. We have of course our faces on the pumpkin, we have the grim reaper of EOS, so many new pumpkin submissions so if you're out there you submitted one of these HallowEOS pumpkins, thank you so much for participating and best of luck as we pick the winners here coming up on November 1st.
Zack: All right, so let's jump into the hackathon news so as a reminder if you haven't got enough reminders yet, next weekend November 10th, 11th, and 12th, we've got the EOS Global Hackathon in the scaling blockchain conference coming up in San Francisco. Rob and I will both be there. Dr. Bitgenstein made a little appearance, he'll be there also on my hackathon team. I had a lot of people reach out because last week I think I mentioned that there's going to be a bunch of events going on around a hackathon and the scaling blockchain so Lumeos, I can't even read my screen, Lumeos put a cool graphic out with some different events so on November 9th there's gonna be an EOS happy hour at the tabletop house. And then after the hackathon on November 11th there's going to be an after party, after the scaling blockchain conference there's a couple of different things I know Lumeos has their Lumeos happy hour up here, but I'm I'm pretty sure the scaling blockchain conference also has like an evening event or a happy hour type thing.
Zack: But the event I'm most excited about and I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it or not just because my flight is speaking of shEOS at EOS 21, they're gonna be doing an EOS smart contract workshop, an intro to EOS 21 protocol.
Rob: Yeah, so that was the little that portal I used earlier was the EOS 21 portal that will allow developers to super easily port Ethereum tokens over EOS, we saw that in action so pretty cool that now they're going out there and educating developers on how to actually port.
Zack: And as far as the people instructing that event we got, I'm gonna mess this guy's name up, can you read it for me?
Rob: I believe it's Kudar Eair, I could be wrong.
Zack: He's from Everipedia, right?
Rob: I'm not sure.
Zack: You can't read that text?
Rob: Oh developer at Everipedia, Wow okay.
Zack: All right so the other thing going on is I guess if this is coming out Wednesday on Halloween tonight the webinar is actually coming out for the hackathon. They're gonna go over the hackathon schedule, they're gonna go over the prizes, the judging criteria, an overview of the challenges and then a deep dive into the provided technology, submission rules, and just an opportunity to ask questions so if anyone's participating you probably got the email reminders about this. But we're both really excited. Rob's going to be a mentor at the hackathon, I'm hackathon a team with Bitgenstein and some other people.
Rob: I'm so excited it's gonna be a great event whether you're going there just to check it out, whether you're hacking, whether your mentor like me, whatever you're doing at the hackathon if you're there it's gonna be a treat, Dan Larimer is gonna be there, some amazing people from the EOS space are gonna be there including some other people from Block.One like Rob Decitizen. Anyway should have a pretty all-star team they're doing the judging and we should see some pretty cool projects emerge.
Zack: Yes, so I was looking at the judges when putting the script together for today and so we know who Dan Larimer is, Rob, I'm not gonna even try to say Rob's last name but he's the president of Block.One, I can't even read my screen with these glasses. All right so then the other people were, Brad Stephen, he is part of Blockchain Capital, so if you've never heard of Blockchain Capital they're really big VC fund. I think they're located in San Francisco, I'm not sure I don't have that my notes, but they are investors in Coinbase, Cracken, Blockstream, ERX, Ripple, Block.One, so like all of the major players in the space, they've got their hand in.
Rob: Yeah, Blockchain Capital has several different funds I believe that are all obviously focused on the blockchain some at different sectors than others, but pretty interesting group of people with some pretty powerful minds.
Zack: There's also Philip Rosedale, do you want to talk about his background a little bit?
Rob: Yeah, so Philip Rosedale is the founder and CEO at High Fidelity, now if you watch one of the most recent episodes where I sort of talked about my experience with in High Fidelity then you should know what we're talking about. But if you don't it's basically a virtual reality world built on top of the u.s. blockchain, now right now it's built on EOS test net, but you can actually go and check it out at highfidelity.com H-I-G-H for high, but it's pretty awesome, and it leads me into some pretty interesting theories about what we might see as the hackathon challenge.
Zack: I think so and I got a little bit more tidbits. So if you're not familiar with Second Life it was a major game for a really long time. I was never personally into it I have read about it in the news. But at one point they were doing $700 million dollars in a virtual economy as far as economic power, that's insane $700 million dollars every year in a digital world where nothing really exists.
Rob: Well and second life was very popular for sort of having this first real-world in-game economy, so even though the Linden dollar, which is from the company Linden that made second life was centralized and had a fixed price that the company sort of set and they controlled when the price went up or down. It was really one of the first games to ever have real currency within it that had a real value, so it was famous for the person who set up a bunch of virtual strip clubs in the game and a bunch of virtual businesses.
Zack: There was like casinos within the virtual world and it actually got shut down by real world governments gambling in the virtual world. The other big thing I read there at one point there were one million active users so you talk about like mainstream adoption. So Philip Rosedale, he is the CEO of High Fidelity, they are completely funded right now they're prepared to currently working on EOS.IO. They're building a new virtual reality platform on top of EOS.IO, so Philip Rosedale is the real deal. He's done this before he [crosstalk 00:13:29] mass adoption, and I found this really cool quote from a Forbes article from 2017 that I'll read to you guys. He said, "If blockchain were around when we started Second Life we would have built everything around it and indeed it is some of the work were undertaking now with High Fidelity. I think that blockchain is super important for money, for digital assets, and most importantly for identity not just in the virtual world but in the real world."
Rob: Oh yeah now this is pretty exciting to see somebody move from Second Life. When I was involved and got really interested in the Decentraland project which was built on Ethereum, unfortunately their virtual world never launched, but you can go and sort of trade placeholder tokens that represent the actual land. But throughout that whole process I learned so much about Second Life and about the problems that they had due to centralization one of which was what the community sort of called acts of Linden. And through an act of Linden they would come in they would make some change to the code maybe they would take somebody's virtual property that had real value sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars and that change would cause people to lose just insane amounts of money. So those got deemed acts of Linden and-
Zack: Sounds like theft.
Rob: Yeah, basically I mean they came in they make a change something happens. But in a world like High-Fidelity where it's totally decentralized, somebody can't just come in and tweak the rules and steal your property from you because it's all on a blockchain that you control, so it should be super exciting to see what they build over there, but it's been fun to dabble around in now with the beta version.
Zack: So being that we're both going to the hackathon and I'll be participating it we've had conversations offline about predictions of what we think the theme is going to be for this hackathon. So if we walk through the last three hackathons the day of the hackathon a theme is announced and basically that's what the projects are built around. And the reason they don't give the theme away in advance is because it's a hackathon they don't want teams doing a bunch of code and work on their own before the hackathon and then showing up with a finished product that they're gonna submit as if they just built it over a weekend. So they don't show their cards too early for the hackathons but anyway at the Hong Kong one the theme was identify a centralized business model and create a decentralized alternative that is built for large-scale mainstream adoption. The second one was in Australia and that theme was create a dApp on the EOS.IO platform that empowers the public to play a role in sustaining natural environments for the future.
Zack: The most recent one in London, which was the largest hackathon ever I believe over 550 participants, their theme was create an application on EOS.IO that improves the relationship between technology and a user's privacy and security.
Rob: So basically to break those down Hong Kong we had mainstream adoption. Australia we had a sustainable social impact, and then London.
Zack: Privacy and security. So we talked about blockchain every week, every day, and we hypothesize and speculative where are we gonna see the mainstream adoption happen first. And I think where we've come to agree an agreement on that and we actually think that's gonna be the theme of the contest because it hasn't been done yet. You want to jump into it and tell the secrets?
Rob: Yeah, so I think as we've seen in the rise of EOS dApps that have all been gaming dApps, it really seems like EOS is the platform that's so well suited to gaming. And having somebody from obviously Second Life but now that the founder and CEO of High Fidelity being one of the judges tells me that, hey maybe the theme is to build a game on top of EOS, which sounds pretty cool.
Zack: And just being in Silicon Valley, San Francisco, there's a lot of game developers in this cities, so we talked about how to grow this platform or any blockchain platform you got to bring in developers from outside of the ecosystem. So blockchain has been a buzzword now for a couple of years and there's a lot of people who are interested in it but they haven't like gotten their hands dirty in it yet and a hackathon is a great opportunity to do that. So I'm assuming that we're going to see a lot of people from all of the gaming dev shops in San Fran here, so there's gonna be loads of experience of gaming development and game theory.
Rob: Well if we think also I mean that awesome tutorial that Block.One released that one that we put out a video about on the Cypherglass YouTube channel. We talked about it here last week, elemental battles, which is that card game built on EOS that also acts as a developer tutorial to teach developers how to build it who have never built on a blockchain before. I think they're gonna use that as their spearhead tool for this event and say, "Hey, use elemental battles, learn how it works, and go out and make your own game over the next 36 hours," so I can't wait I'm so excited.
Zack: I mean we talked about it a little bit but I think there's so many potentials in online gaming and the need for blockchain.
Rob: I mean and you texted me a pretty interesting idea you want to explain that? So as a little bit of context I'm a huge World of Warcraft player I've sunk hundreds and hundreds of real days of play time probably 4 or 500 hours into it over the last 13 or 14 years, but I'm big into that but they're definitely problems with having a centralized entity make real changes to the game world much like Linden did with Second Life.
Zack: So let's walk through an example, Rob, how many times have you like been really into Warcraft, you're in one of your modes where you're playing a couple hours per day and you're killing, you got your character exactly how you want it, and then all the sudden you download a game patch and your guy got completely nerffed-
Rob: Absolutely, my spells do less damage, it's yeah it's bad.
Zack: So this type of stuff happens on every gaming platform essentially especially the World of Warcraft type of games where patches will come out and sometimes their patch is that the majority of the community support, but a lot of times it's a conflict. There's some people that want the patch and some people that don't want the patch. So I've been thinking about gaming ever since Rob and I basically came up with the idea that we think this is going to be a gaming hackathon. I've just been thinking of the gaming industry and like what applications could blockchain have that people aren't talking about yet. And one of the ones I was thinking was gaming patches, so using a governance model to vote on a gaming patch. So if you had a decentralized platform like High Fidelity, for instance, and a patch was submitted by either a decentralized group of developers or if they have like a core group at first until it becomes more centralized.
Zack: If they wanted to patch the software and we had a blockchain system that with a decentralized identity and a voting solution, you would actually be able to take it up to vote on whether or not the players, who are the most interested stakeholders in this entire system. They're the ones putting in their time and sweat into these games. Imagine if you could have a consensus vote maybe have two competing patches, three competing patches, and then the community decides how the game is going to expand?
Rob: Absolutely, I mean that would be from the perspective of a World of Warcraft player, somebody that's played tons and tons of different MMO's, massively multiplayer online role-playing games and RPG, that's sort of the genre. I can see how this would be a major hit because there are so many times where a patch comes out, maybe 80% of it is good and people like it's new features, it's a new zone to explore, but then 20% of it is bad and the player base goes, "Wait a minute." Sort of unanimously, "Why did you make that change why in the world would you remove that feature, add that thing?" And this I think would be a way for people like Blizzard Entertainment who make World of Warcraft, it's a way for them to keep their subscriber numbers up because then the player base feels like they're listening to them and their efforts in the game maybe get them more votes on the next patch that's coming out, so there's some really cool models in the build.
Zack: [crosstalk 00:20:37] so for any voting system to work, so there's a lot of things that blockchain could do without it decentralized identity in a virtual world right as far as ownership of assets and things like that. But for a governance system to work and this is in real life and in a virtual world you need that decentralized identity because without it there's no way of preventing Rob from voting, creating a new account, voting again, creating a new account, voting again. So how do you in a virtual gaming world I tried to think to myself how could you prove that you were unique individual without using a government ID. And I obviously read a lot about what Dan suggest and talks about in telegram. And at one point he made this suggestion of decentralized identity he said proof-of-life. I don't I don't really remember the context of it but how do you prove that you're alive. And in a gaming world such as World of Warcraft, you have XP, you want to explain what XP is?
Rob: Yeah so XP is experience points, it's basically points do you collect by killing things or completing quests to go out and level up and become more powerful.
Zack: So it takes a really long time to get to the top tier levels so I think at first the levels are easier and then as you level up they get harder and harder. And then to also reach these other levels you have to complete certain tasks and in World of Warcraft some of these tasks are social you got to coordinate with other people.
Rob: So you've got to get in groups of 10, 20 sometimes in the olden days it was 40 people you had to get all together to go fight a raid boss.
Zack: And you're basically proving that you're not a bot in those situations because a but can't socialize or understands how to like coordinate an attack. So imagine if we had a governance mechanism or a voting mechanism on a virtual game like this where the votes were weighted by XP levels and that would allow the elders or the most experienced gamer's on the platform, the players who have played the most hours who are the most committed to the platform, they actually have more weights with how they make decisions than the rest of the game. And then if there was like their own ... imagine like a worker proposal fund within the game itself. So you have all these developers maybe they're 3d artists and they can make castles, or cool houses, or a casino, or something really cool. And there could be a worker proposal system in this virtual world where someone proposes, "Hey guys I want to build the coolest island it's gonna be like Hawaii but on steroids and I want to build [crosstalk 00:22:56], but I need funding because it's going to take me 200 hours to design it and build it, please fund me."
Zack: And if we have this in-game economy and a decentralized way of voting with an identity solution that should work. I mean you can always create a second identity in this situation, but it's gonna take you a really long time. So using that system you could like expand the game in a decentralized way and also if the economy allows just like with EOS how there's an inflation mechanism where they could use a tax to whatever the game would decide, that money could be in a fund to further development.
Rob: I love that I mean in a sense the virtual currency in World of Warcraft technically has a real world value. They allow you to sort of buy it from other players but you can't actually sell it, you can sort of convert it into Blizzard dollars and buy other ...
Zack: Yeah, so there's a lot of background behind this gaming industry and the team behind Block.One, you want to talk about Brendan Bloomer, the CEO, and then Brock Pearce, the former partner of Block.One?
Rob: Yeah, so Brendan Bloomer in particular has a pretty deep history with World of Warcraft also on sort of before Blizzard came in and started allowing players to sell gold to each other and sort of being that middleman, there were massive markets where people were going out in hordes getting huge groups of people farming tons of this in-game gold currency and then basically going and selling it to people and making tons of money. And Brendan Bloomer, the now CEO of Block.One actually ran I think it was ing was the name of it, something along those lines I could have the name wrong. But he ran what was what eventually became the largest gold farming and selling an item farming and selling website in the world, eventually sold it and at one point had 400,000 people, 400,000 people in Asia, that's more people than Apple and Google and all these places combined all mining gold in all of these different video games.
Rob: So he goes way back, that's how he got his initial money that he then put into I think a real estate company or something.
Zack: I think he still runs the company. I think he's still part of that company, it's in Hong Kong.
Rob: But anyway Brendan has a pretty deep ties to gaming and Brett does as well, is that correct?
Zack: Yeah, I'll just say that I'll pull a video clip up because I'm not ready to talk about it now, but when I'm editing this off I'll put some in here good. But I have some personal experiences with in-game currencies as well. So with like the World of Warcraft stuff basically they were mining gold and then they would have a website or something out of the game I should say where people would transact. I would send Rob like $10 of PayPal and then he'd promised that he's gonna meet me somewhere in the game and in this virtual world exchange this gold to me. I don't know Rob, I don't trust Rob, how do I know Rob is gonna give me that gold, so that ties into my story.
Rob: You don't.
Zack: So I don't play RPG games myself or any game like that I'm really in the sports game so like Madden is the game that I spend the most of my time playing. And they have this game within the game called Madden Ultimate Team where it's like a trading card game where you collect different players cards and they have different attributes. And you like level up throughout the season, you complete all these goals, and you basically build up your roster by buying new trading cards and they get better throughout the season, and you buy them with this virtual gold that you get for winning games and stuff. But I have more ... I don't know, I've got more money than time in most cases. I'm a very busy person, so I would personally rather pay money to someone for their hard work that they did playing the game to earn this gold. And there's a whole second market for it on Reddit, so I went on this Reddit. This was like two years ago, I went on Reddit and I linked up with some guy, we came up with a price, I was gonna buy like 100,000 of these coins from him, so I could buy like the latest Barry Sanders card or something crazy.
Zack: So I send them my PayPal and then he just disappears off the face of the earth. I'm waiting in the game he tells me he's gonna sell me a card that is usually valued for ... he told me to post a card for sale that's usually for 100 coins, and he said he was gonna buy it for a 100,000 coins like way over priced, that's how the deal was gonna work. I seriously spent like six hours like messaging this guy saying, "Hey what's going on?" And it happened because there wasn't a market to handle this, this is something that could be done very easily in a smart contract. Without an escrow service were basically ... we agree to our terms, we write it into a smart contract, I send my money, my cash, or my EOS, or my US tether. I would send it to the smart contract and then he would send me to send the tokens to the smart contract and the smart contract had send me my tokens and to him the money. So I personally have a story where I got scammed, it's a scam.
Rob: Yeah, I guess don't buy Madden coins on Reddit, that's the lesson there.
Zack: I ended up, I was so butt hurt about it but I ended up buying coins off someone else.
Rob: Oh really, you still went back and did it?
Zack: Yeah man, I only lost like $20, it was good, it was worth it man.
Rob: Yeah, that's impressive.
Zack: And it's wasted more hours of my life after that.
Rob: Right, I'm sure over the next like a couple years as more and more people realize the benefits of tokenizing their game in some way. We've seen a lot of these gambling platforms on EOS running really well by having that token model and it's sort of a viral way to get more people in the ecosystem playing and then referring other people. Once other people who are doing these incredibly social games like MMOs and these massive, massive world games I can see a rush of blockchain games coming to the blockchain and particularly the EOS blockchain we're soon we may have not just High Fidelity hosted here but we could have all these other virtual worlds with their own virtual economies running on EOS.
Zack: There were rumors a few months ago and obviously rumors a rumors, we have no idea-
Rob: Right, I know exactly what you're talking about, yeah.
Zack: Some guy I don't remember who was he I saw him on Reddit where he said he knows someone, who knows someone, who knows someone, who said that there's multiple game studios building blizzard-like ecosystems on EOS, do you remember that?
Rob: Yeah, he said there were Blizzard quality games coming to us in the next six months, which-
Zack: For those who don't know what Blizzard is?
Rob: Blizzard is the company behind World of Warcraft but they're known for making really high quality polished games that take them years and years to build. I don't know if ... unless they were building these games before and only over the last six months have started to implement EOS and that tokenization then I think it's possible. But if they just started building they're not going to get it done in that six month period.
Zack: I don't really think you'd have to build a game from scratch to put it on a blockchain like you can use the blockchain just to handle like the transfer of assets, just the [crosstalk 00:29:11] piece of the game.
Rob: It's how it is for High Fidelity where you going to the game, I'm pretty sure the game is running on their own servers. But when it actually comes to in the future it'll be laying in ownership, you can have that on the blockchain. But all the digital items, you have your own digital wallet within the game, all of that's on the blockchain, so sort of the crucial parts are on the blockchain.
Zack: I'm probably going to play my first virtual world game as soon as ... I still haven't played High Fidelity even after you told me about it. I have watched a YouTube video on it, it's insane. They have a weekly or monthly like town hall meeting where hundreds of players office and it's like a governance, like town hall meeting, everyone talks about all the issues going on. And this I'm pretty sure this CEO it plays a role in it like he'll stand up in front of the virtual world in front of a virtual PowerPoint screen and it'll give a presentation to a virtual audience.
Rob: It's funny you mention that I watched him give this presentation, it was more of him just engaging with people saying, "Hey, what bugs you running into? We can fix that, we can add that feature," until he had to go. But tell the story about that town hall that I thought was funny, I'll see if I can find the video clip on YouTube and we'll get it up here. But imagine I see Town Hall I'm like, okay probably a bunch of people in a room similar to the last one I saw which was like a costume contest in this big auditorium. But this time a bunch of different people they're sort of in line waiting to talk and I remember I joined the stream and this person who looked like I don't know a fox or something with these crazy ears in this big tail, he was animating like a human because they have full body tracking in VR. He's up here asking about some new feature to be added in the game and it was just so funny not even what they said but then the way in which they ended the conversation where they were like, "Oh thanks so much for the work you're doing, I love the game."
Rob: And then just flew off, so literally just imagine the Fox like getting out of the in front of the little microphone like just boom, just flying away through the air this guy and the next person came.
Zack: So this guy is wearing like an oculus, what's it called?
Rob: So everybody either has on an oculus rift or an HTC vive, which allows you to do mostly full-body-
Zack: So when you play those games like I don't have any experience like how do you walk around?
Rob: So with an oculus you can actually set it up in a room that's a certain amount and you're confined to that room, but you can walk around in there, you can sit down. And it tracks you and your hands and usually part of your body throughout the entire experience.
Zack: If you wanted to fly there'd just be like a button that's like the fly button?
Rob: Exactly, there would be a fly button and then you sort of control where it goes.
Zack: And I think I saw another one that it was like a trackball you're like standing on a ball and you could like walk around on it like a treadmill?
Rob: There's one that's a treadmill that will go any way you go, that's sort of coming in the future, but right now people just walk around their houses. But it was just so funny to see this fox standing there talking to the CEO of High Fidelity saying, "Okay yeah we'd be happy to have that feature and then just fly away." And it just made me think about like in the future all of their ridiculous outfits that people will be wearing and the funny interactions that will happen because of these virtual worlds, so I just thought it was funny.
Zack: It's crazy, it's not gonna be too far off that we're gonna have like virtual conferences, oh colleges, virtual-
Rob: And that's even beyond being the social VR experience where you can go have costume contests and all kinds of stuff within High Fidelity-
Zack: What costume contests?
Rob: Yeah, they had a costume contest.
Zack: We can create a Macho EOS Man?
Rob: You totally could you could make that in High Fidelity, but they're targeting people-
Zack: Will that cost me?
Rob: I'll talk to my people, but High Fidelity is targeting that market of doing conferences in VR, of doing webinars, and VR of doing staff training in VR, so that they are going a little bit beyond gaming but mostly focused on virtual reality.
Zack: So Dan gave some updates on the wallet and Rax, you want to cover that one Rob?
Rob: Yeah, absolutely so Dan hopped in telegram and for those of you that aren't familiar, Rax is basically this new token leasing platform.
Zack: We talked about it last week so if you want to hear about the REX go to episode 30, for an explanation of it. But it's basically a way for token holders to earn revenue through leasing tokens. I asked you for the update, I'll stop now and let you continue.
Rob: Yeah, so Dan came out and said Block.One has developed the REX, developed, past tense meaning it should be done, make sense since he was saying they were putting the final touches on it earlier I think it was week. And then he also says our wallet software is coming soon, which is that hardware wallet iPhone. He goes on to say, "You can have it fast, cheap, or high quality, pick two." And he's saying they've chosen to build a high quality app that's also gonna be cheap in this case for EOS accounts, so it's taking longer but he's also saying they've been putting out weekly patch updates, major performance updates, the EOS.IO like that the 2x, and then another 2x, and another 2x of EOS CPU performance. And goes on to say, "Exciting things like we should have multi-threaded signature verification in the next release" which will put us at next week.
Zack: I think the gist of what he was saying was hold your pants on, stop complaining, we're working, we're not sitting on our hands doing nothing and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't paying attention and they're definitely not watching the show.
Yeah, so I'm really, really excited about that so going back to Dan's post though, so basically he was saying hold tight, and don't worry, we're working on it, you'll be happy with what we have when we have it, and sorry it's not as fast as everyone wants it. But the other piece was performance improvement so that there's constantly being performance improvements to the blockchain, every month they do a major update and it seems like every week there is a small update.
Rob: Every week there is, yeah, weekly updates to EOS.
Zack: We hear a lot of complaints and discussion and solutions around computational resources and RAM and all the fun stuff like that, and one of the solutions that a lot of people point to our sidechains and sister chains as a possible solution to that. And Aurora EOS, who's a recently launched block producer with employees out of Multicoin Capital. They put out a really interesting tweet was that yesterday the day before?
Rob: I think it was the day before.
Zack: You want to walk through because I was real busy that day and you participated?
Rob: Yeah, so they came out with a great thread and said let's talk about you sidechains and sister chains. EOS will scale in two primary ways, one, by optimizing the individual chains to have more through putting capacity that's things like multi-threading things like the updates that we've seen over the past few weeks that fix CPU issues. And the number two, by having many different chains that can run in parallel but also communicate with one another. They go on to define sidechains are basically us block chains that use the main net-
Zack: Now I like that how they distinguish between the site. I think there's a lot of confusion there.
Rob: When people hear sister chain they go, "Oh what's that, maybe it works with the main chain." A sister chain is a fork, very simply put it's a fork, it's a totally separate block chain, it can't communicate. Whereas a sidechain is strategically linked back to the EOS main net and actually uses the EOS main net token for resource delegation, so to transact on the sidechain you still need us main net token.
Zack: I'll read the next one so the important thing for both of these is that using the upcoming inner blockchain communication software that's being developed by both Block.One and a number of BP's, after that happens all of these chains will be able to communicate and interoperate. So what they said is we know Block.One's working on it, we know [Warbly 00:39:39] working on it. Is Taylors working on it, do you know?
Rob: I actually don't think Warbly or [inaudible 00:39:42] are working on it, I think they're just waiting for Block.One to release IBC.
Zack: I pretty sure Warbly I've seen it but I don't know about the other ones I'll just say [crosstalk 00:39:53]. I don't have it in front of me so I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I do want to-
Rob: I mean this points out one of the interesting predictions I've made on this show, which is that I think over time all of these forks, these sister chains, will eventually become sidechains. So things like Tilos if they want to survive in the long term in my opinion they're gonna end up linked into the main net have sort of a separate slightly different governance model in their little corner of the ecosystem. And then their people can still use the main EOS mainnet as well so it should be pretty cool.
Zack: So he goes on to explain that the reason some of these chains split off into being sister chains instead of sidechains is because that they need some major governance changes or resource allocation changes that wouldn't be possible in the main net. So one example of that is with Warbly they need a KYC provider to KYC all of their active participants on their network because they're gonna be integrated with financial services like banks, so that's a requirement of their particular chain, but it's something that most people on the EOS main that would never vote for if a referendum was available for that. And then another one is like Talos where they're trying to be very developer friendly and they're giving away a lot of resource and computation and free accounts. So it's more or less lowering the barrier of entry for developers to get involved. So they all have their specific purposes and I think wax was the original fork and I forget what their reason for forking was.
Zack: They basically said there was software but there were things that they couldn't do. I think they had law producers all ready or something on the current?
Rob: I think so, yeah, and they'll likely end up being ... right now they're a fork, but in the future they'll likely just be a sidechain and sort of link in even though they still have their own resource model with their own token, which is interesting. And I tweeted that CZ of by Nance saying, "I know you're building your decentralized exchange on your own thing, but you could actually make it a neo sidechain use the BnB token for resource allocation and you're gonna benefit not only in users but also just in that added network effect."
Zack: And if B&B had a utility for resource allocation on top of the utilities it already has, that would be an awesome token like B&B is-
Rob: Oh yeah and then you link it to the U.S. maintenance that people can seamlessly take their wallets that are already there in the main net, use that exchange I mean it would be so simple and would get so many users and really went over the U.S. community because-
Zack: One of the problems with utility tokens that I've seen over the last year is that if you can't explain it to someone who doesn't know blockchain then it's probably too complicated for it to actually work. And that's one of the reasons I like EOS, what does EOS give you? It gives you every one token and this is off because of some inflation, but one token is one one billionth of the entire networks computation so that makes sense to me I could probably explain that to someone and they understand okay you've got one billionth of the resources? It does more I could go into the voting, but that's that's why I like the B&B token because it has a clear utility so it gives you a discount on transaction fees. You could pay transaction fees on in exchange for discount, and it also gives you a discount into investing and I think blockchain startup projects too. So it has utilities, it gives you discounts, it's like a membership discount which I think is really cool, but sidechains. So next we get into sidechains, so we can rattle off a bunch of examples of sister chains because up until this point that's all we've seen is sister chains but we have yet to see-
Rob: Well the reason why is because people are waiting for IBC to come out, so even though Warbly saying they're a sister chain they really will convert as part of their plan as long as they follow through into that sidechain, which I think is crucial for them to really get that network effect of the U.S. network as well. But that's why we haven't seen any sidechains yet as the tech is not yet released but is being worked on and hopefully we'll see it soon.
Okay, so what's interesting about splitting up resource delegation between a sister chain and the main net is that if you have a sidechain and has its own token you can figure out your own way to have your own block producers. You can pay them in that token in the same way that US network pays blog producers like Cypherglass for producing blocks and for being a standby block producer. But when it comes to incentivizing block producers to actually make blocks on a sidechain that still uses the main use token, it's a little bit trickier and I think it's gonna be interesting to see some models come out of it. In this thread people start talking, hey how are we gonna offer block producers the opportunity, how are we gonna incentivize them and actually produce blocks on a sidechain that doesn't have their own token for resource allocation. And the way could be as some a profit sharing for a dApp.
Rob: So if a big gaming dApp comes out, let's say High Fidelity finally launches on the mainnet, they come out they say, "Hey we need 100 block producers to run our sidechain." If you as one of the U.S. mainet block producers participate, we'll give you X percent of the revenue that we make.
Zack: So I love the revenue models we've seen so far in the EOS, I mean why don't you explain how you love talking about the base token. And you gotta disclose Rob has some of these tokens, I have some just from playing the game a few times it's like some dust.
Rob: Yeah, so we both hold dice tokens-
Zack: And dust let me just say it's not an addict here.
Rob: But it's worked so well because the dice token entitles you to 50% of the profit that comes out of the platform so if they do a million EOS in volume in a day, right now they're doing several million units a day, but that million EOS will be something like 6500 EOS in profit that will be distributed to the token holders.
Zack: I was talking about how they actually draw their revenues they use a fee, what you're saying is really good too, it's a revenue model. So in the past we saw a lot of ICOs raise money where they're raising millions of dollars up front, and that's meant to fund development for years to come, whereas this new business model that's emerging and like the EOS dice and the bet dice are the two first ones I've seen is where they have a service that people actually want to use in this case it's an online casino or a race game. And every time you wager if I wager one US token then what would it be .02 EOS to the developers, it's about 2%?
Rob: Something like that, yeah.
Zack: So a percentage of every transaction would go to the developers or into a pool of funds I should say.
Rob: I think it's 1.6% of it goes into a pool of funds and then half of that goes to the token holders as profit. 40% of that is to the team and the other 10% is to a cost pool to like pay for promotions.
Zack: So I think with Aurora and the other people involved in this conversation we're talking about is take the example of bet dice. So they have this large user base and this high-volume transactions where they're making hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions of dollars in EOS per day. And then that's all put into a pool and then once into that pool it gets redistributed amongst the development team and the token holders. So all they're suggesting and all we think that would be necessary is add another stakeholder to that group and that would be the supporting block producer. And then they're basically being funded so they're incentivized, the dApp doesn't have to worry about running out of CPU like they have been in the past few weeks.
Rob: If you look at the 10% of bet dices revenue that goes to cost [crosstalk 00:46:58] that's right, that's for marketing promotions, that's for the different use giveaways they do on their website but they definitely have enough EOS in there at least right now to also go out and pay block producers with that 10% of cost.
Zack: That would prevent so over the last couple weeks they keep hitting the transaction limit and then an update comes out and we don't hit the limit again. And then it seems like they push the limit again.
Rob: Yeah, it seems like bet dice is just really pushing EOS to its limits, which is one of the reasons why I like it so much because it's pushing the chain literally to capacity so then we can go in, make a little change, bump it up, fix it, and it's been awesome to see it sort of force EOS to improve.
Zack: Yeah, all these new game ideas so we haven't really talked about on the show but Pixel Masters was really cool too and that was an incentive model. I keep getting asked to talk about and every time I want to talk about it I think it's old news again. But it's new news again because the game finally ended, there's like a jackpot at the end, that's about all I know I haven't played. But the way that would work would be on this game you by land so there's like a million ... how many pixels like-
Rob: I think there are a million a thousand by a thousand.
Zack: A million pixels and they're really cheap at first, so if I want to fill a pixel with a color, I would pay X amount of EOS, and then if Rob wanted to paint over my pixel he would have to pay slightly above with the person before him paid. So then the person before him, ie me, I would get back all of my money I invested into that pixel and it would come from Rob, and I would make some profit from the whatever above and beyond Rob contributed towards that purchase. If paid one EOS and then Rob came in and paid two EOS, I might get my one EOS back and then half an EOS as profit and it's not that much of a profit I don't think, but I'm just using this as an example. But then in perpetuity as the game continues on and more and more people play, even the players who bought the original pixels we're in some sort of profit distribution on that. So that's why this game had such a network effect I never got involved because it was really like a Ponzi that everyone knew is a Ponzi and agrees it's a Ponzi, it's like gambling. You play a slot machine you know you're gonna eventually lose.
And in this game it's basically like if you own all these pixels when the game ends you don't get someone else buying it giving you property [crosstalk 00:49:06]. But the game ended recently and I think when it ends it just restarts again and with a blank canvas. So I think I owe it to the pixel masters to actually give a better explanation maybe another time, but that's my version from someone who hasn't played just because I'm just really not into these gambling games. I played dice just because for the proof of concept and to see the speed of the blockchain, but I'm just not a big gambler personally.
Rob: Same yeah, I don't endorse gambling, don't think anybody should go out and gamble, but I think that it's pretty cool to see them really push the EOS network forward.
Zack: Speaking of which though so we mentioned Dice since we're recording this the day before it's actually coming out, I see oh like we actually made a really cool BetDice commercial. At some point it's gonna play, probably at the beginning of this, maybe at the end of it I don't know, but you guys will see this really cool bet dice commercial.
Rob: That's great, I was not involved.
Zack: Rob is not an employee of EOS.IO Alert. Rob's only affiliation at this point with ICO Alert is this podcast with me. We did it because it's network effect. These games so on top of them having these incentive models to pay the participants because if you play the games you earn tokens, you could be an investor like Rob and buy tokens. And then these tokens or distribution models could be used to pay block producers and to produce blocks on a sidechain for them. In addition to all of that they have amazing referral programs. Pixelmaster had a great referral program also where basically it incentivizes you to get other people to play. It's nothing new it's just on a blockchain it's trustless.
Rob: That's part of the reason why I think these things have gained so much traction and if we look even where this will go in the future I can imagine Block.One social media platform having some built-in referral also that people will use as another stream of income, so it should be pretty crazy.
Zack: Yeah, I mean whenever we were talking about Peter Thiel wasn't wasn't that how they incentivize people was with a referral program? I can invite Rob to join PayPal for free, it would cost him nothing and there would be $10 waiting for him when he got there, and then the user who invited him also got $10.
Rob: I wonder if they'll do something like that with when Block.One comes up with it Harbor Wallet that Dan says there they're finishing up, maybe in addition to giving you a free account they'll also give you like one free EOS or something.
Zack: Who knows. Maybe if it's a in your jurisdiction, how you feeling about that bet Rob? I think every week people ask about it-
Rob: Every week people ask it and the answer is the same, we'll see what happens December 31, 2018, we'll see what happens. We'll see we, it's not over yet.
Zack: We gotta get Q on Everything EOS sometime.
Rob: Definitely, but I think we should probably wrap it up there. A lot of exciting things coming whether the hackathon ends up being gaming themed or not it still should be an awesome time. But it's been another great episode thank you so much for spending HallowEOS with us. Happy Halloween to you all and get out there and enjoy.
Zack: Just so everybody knows, this is our episode for this week, do you not expect one on Friday. We have a lot of stuff at least I have a lot of stuff I gotta get done before the hackathon. Next week schedule I'll probably put something short out. We'll have plenty of content over the weekend, but if you guys don't hear from us on Friday we're sorry we're just really busy we'll be traveling in San Francisco. But there will be plenty of content following that, so close this off with happy HallowEOS everybody. Once again I'm Zack Galll, I'm Rob Finch, and this is Everything EOS.
Zack: Let me say that again, I'm going to be the Macho man.
Rob: Oh yeah.
Zack: All right once again I'm the Macho EOS man.
Rob: I am astronaut Rob Finch.
Zack: And this is Everything EOS.
Zack: All right.