Rob and Zack discuss the upcoming EOS Hackathon and Scaling Blockchain Conference, updates on the resource exchange, stablecoins, an impending hard fork, and more!
28:20 - EOS Hard Fork
34:17 - REX Nearing Completion
Everything EOS is a podcast hosted by Rob Finch (Cypherglass) and Zack Gall (ICO Alert) that follows the EOS ecosystem: dApp spotlights, VC partnerships, announcements, and more!
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Zack: Welcome to the 30th edition, number big three zero-
Rob: Oh yeah.
Zack: ... of Everything EOS. I'm Zack Gall, in-house EOS aficionado here at ICO Alert, the trusted ICO Discovery Platform. Visit icoalert.com, the most complete calendar of all active and upcoming ICOs. I'm here today with the founder and CEO of Cypherglass, Rob Finch.
Rob: Thank you all so much for joining us for this big three-O episode of Everything EOS, episode 30. If you've been with us since the beginning, thank you so much. If you just joined this episode, thank you as well. Join the party.
Zack: I think we're the longest-running EOS podcast. EOS Go stopped at some point.
Rob: Yeah, that's a good point.
Zack: They were the only ones that were doing this before us.
Zack: We're the longest-running-
Rob: You heard it here first. Welcome back to Everything EOS, the longest-running-
Zack: ... EOS podcast.
Rob: There it is. We sincerely appreciate all the feedbacks, all the comments that we're getting on YouTube, on SoundCloud. Wherever you're leaving that feedback, please continue to do so. It gets us super excited to get out of bed every Thursday, come into the office and record. So please, keep leaving that feedback, and let us know if you like the show by liking, subscribing, or following the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, SoundCloud, or wherever you may be listening.
Zack: As a reminder, as every week, for the people still just listening. We are putting video formats on YouTube. We do some graphic overlays. You can see our beautiful faces. Just search for Everything EOS on YouTube. We will most likely be the very first results, and as a reminder, engage the videos with likes, subscribes, and comments. That helps other people find the comment, get suggested to them. If you like it, everyone else will hopefully like it too.
Rob: Now, before ... We got a really good episode for you today, coming hot off the presses for you. But before we get started, I got to give you an important disclaimer. My friend Zack Gall here and I both do hold EOS tokens, and we're going to be expressing our opinion about EOS and the open-source EOSIO software throughout this podcast. But please, don't take any of the opinions that we're expressing as legal financial tax professional or any of other kind of advice. We're just two people talking about open-source software that we love.
Zack: On today's podcast, we're going to be discussing a brand new announcement about a new judge for the San Francisco Hackathon made just this morning. An upcoming EOS hard fork and an explanation of what that means, and the latest update on when we could expect the resource exchange to be ready on the mainnet.
Rob: Oh, yeah.
Zack: Ready to go?
Rob: Let's do it.
Zack: Let's get to it.
Rob: Coming up, we're going to give you the same reminder we've been giving you. We have some pretty exciting EOS-themed events coming up. So first and foremost, we have the next installment of the Global EOS Hackathon hitting San Francisco next month, November 10th and 11th. So we're about two weeks away now, and it should be pretty exciting to see what happens there.
Zack: So as a reminder, it's going to be at a place called The Village. It's got a maximum capacity of 1,100 people. So if you are even thinking about going, there's still tickets on sale. EOS New York actually is on Twitter. They have a promo code. If you want to go to the EOS Hackathon for free, even though it's only a $10 ticket-
Rob: Oh, wow.
Zack: Use the coupon code: EOSNY-
Rob: There it is.
Zack: And your hackathon ticket will be free.
Rob: That's awesome. As another reminder about the hackathon-
Zack: There's a new judge, huh?
Rob: Yeah, there is a new judge.
Zack: Yeah, breaking news everybody. [crosstalk 00:03:11] go for the news?
Rob: Yeah, in addition to both Zack Gall and I being there, Gall will be there I think participating in the hackathon.
Zack: Yeah, hacking, hacking, hack.
Rob: I'll be there as one of the entrepreneurial mentors. But we will be joined by a third, the man himself Dan Larimer. He was at the London Hackathon, was a judge there, was awesome to go down and meet the community. I think he probably met everybody at the London Hackathon, and it looks like now, he's going to do the same thing in San Francisco. So, super excited. Dan, if you're watching this, we can't wait to see you and meet you in San Francisco. I think it's going to be a fun time.
Zack: I can't wait. Did we mention the scaling blockchain conference?
Rob: No. So, just a day after the hackathon ... The hackathon is on 10th and 11th. If you stay an extra day in San Francisco, there's a scaling blockchain conference where tons of people from the EOS community, myself included will be speaking, sharing our thoughts on the current state of the market, the ecosystem, where EOS might be in the future, and that should be a pretty good time as well.
Zack: I'm working with DABCAST ... I'm working as part of ICO Alert. I'll have a podcasting setup on site at the conference. We'll have a four-mic setup. So I'm still looking to book some topics and guests.
Zack: So you can email me at email@example.com, if you have any ideas or want to participate in that. We'll also probably get a webform up pretty soon. But since it's getting close ... But for right now, you could just email me or hit me up on Telegram if you think you've got something interesting to say. I probably am already in touch with a lot of you guys. But that's that on the scaling blockchain. The other thing about San Francisco is if you guys haven't booked your flight yet ... I just booked my flight yesterday, actually, at the last minute.
Rob: Yeah, I got mine.
Zack: If you're wondering when you should come in. The hackathon starts at 9:00 AM on Saturday. I know Pete. He's another employee here at ICO Alert. Bitgenstein, if you listen to this podcast. He's flying in Saturday morning. He's a nutcase.
Rob: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's crazy.
Zack: So he's basically getting off the plane and heading straight to the hackathon. I'm getting in Friday night.
Zack: You're also?
Rob: No, I get in Thursday evening, I think. I have a training session, a meet-and-greet for all the mentors on Friday. So I have to be there a day early.
Zack: Just so everyone knows, there is stuff going on every night from at least Thursday on all the way till Tuesday. If you're going to be there any extra nights, start hitting people up in the mainnet channels. There's so much going on, like if you just want to meet up for drinks or just hang out with like-minded people. Don't spend Thursday or Friday night alone in your hotel room because there's going to be plenty to do. Just hit me up on Twitter if you want to find all the cool stuff where all the cool kids are hanging out.
Rob: Definitely, yeah, I'll be doing that. I'm excited. Before we jump into all the news that's happened with EOS over the last week since its last episode, we got to throw up some HallowEOS love. So Cypherglass has been running this awesome EOS-themed pumpkin carving contest over the last couple weeks to celebrate Halloween, HallowEOS. We have some awesome new submissions. This first one is when we just got this morning. Pretty cool. It looks like the EOS bat is attacking or eating the ... What is that?
Zack: It's a little mini-Ethereum pumpkin. It's got a little Ethereum logo on it.
Rob: Oh, okay. I see. That's great.
Zack: Yeah, he's eating it.
Rob: He's eating Ethereum.
Zack: Ethereum killer.
Rob: Taking its lunch. We've got an awesome of Dan and his face, which looks pretty good. Thanks for taking the suggestion from last, if you listened. Has a cool EOS logo there as well. We have some others. We have some people who painted their pumpkins. Then a couple interesting submissions where people ... Looks they almost poked holes through hundreds of holes into this pumpkin to create this really cool cityscape. You have EOS in the sky. I assume that's on the moon, which is pretty awesome. So huge shoutout to everybody that submitted their pumpkin so far.
Rob: If you want to win up to 200 EOS, almost dollars is that first place spot. Submit your pumpkin on Twitter with the hashtag #HallowEOS, and tweet at CypherglassBP, and you can be one of the winners.
Zack: So you're telling me right when you came in, when we were talking about this HallowEOS contest about all the copycats-
Rob: Oh my God.
Zack: What happened ever since the announcements? You made the announcement what? Like two and a half weeks, two weeks ago?
Rob: A couple weeks ago, yes. The beginning of October, we came out. We made this pumpkin contest. Maybe it's been done before. Maybe it was done last year, I'm not sure. But then, suddenly, Binance came out with a pumpkin-carving contest. Chains, that EOS exchange came out with one. Bitfinex came out with a contest. So many people coming out with a Halloween contest, which I think is awesome in the crypto world in general. But the main EOS contest is still HalloweenEOS.
Zack: I don't think it's been ... So, I talked to you the night I thought of carving an EOS pumpkin. I said, "You should do a context." I was looking for precedence on this. I think there's only been one before, and it was done-
Zack: ... by a Steemit user last year, wanting to do like Steem or crypto-themed pumpkins. They had like two entries, and it wasn't very good. So I looked high and low to see-
Rob: Oh, okay. That's good to know.
Zack: ... how other people did their judging and stuff.
Zack: Because I wanted to find examples to give you for the blog post to give people inspiration. I think you're the first big one at least, and now, we got all the copycats.
Rob: Yeah, that's okay. Lead by example. I think we have the best submission so far for sure. The other ones I thought were pretty good though. Somebody did CZ's face from Binance.
Zack: That was a really good one. All those photorealistic ones. So my wife and I, she likes to watch this show, which is like a tattoo. They usually do the first round of competition as something non-tattoing, and there's been a bunch of episodes where they carve pumpkins.
Zack: Yeah, they use ... Because the Dan photorealistic face, they're just using different depth to shade his face.
Rob: Were they shaving off layers and stuff?
Zack: Yeah. They've made some super insane pumpkins on there.
Zack: There's still another week almost left. So there's still a chance for you to get some last-minute submissions.
Rob: Yeah, you got to reach out to the people on that show and say, "Hey, come on. Submit your pumpkin."
Zack: $1,000 of EOS.
Rob: Yeah, win 200 EOS. That's pretty awesome.
Zack: So I just said a thousand dollars of EOS. I didn't say ... How many? 200 EOS?
Rob: Right, 200 EOS.
Zack: That gets into the next point. All these stablecoins, what's up?
Rob: Oh my goodness.
Zack: I like the idea of stablecoins. But it's getting out of control. 2017 was the year of ICOs, and 2018's the year of stablecoins.
Rob: Yeah, it seems like it. It seems everybody who saw the crazy bear market that we've been in over the past year or so was like, "Wait, we need to be stable. We need to be more stable. Get all the stablecoins."
Zack: I mean, Bitcoin's the freaking stablecoin, man. There's been a percent of volatility the past week.
Rob: Oh, absolutely.
Zack: This is the tightest range we've been in.
Rob: So let's explain. If somebody's out there. They don't know what a stablecoin is their first time. What is a stablecoin?
Zack: So a stablecoin is just a collateral. It's a collateral, backed dollar. So basically, in most cases, like USD Tether is the ... I don't know if it's the original stablecoin, but it's the most widely used stablecoin.
Rob: Right, the longest lasting.
Zack: And basically, it's just almost like a bank account that's set up. That's auditable not so much for Tether but for these new stablecoins that are auditable. And basically, a new token is created that represents one US dollar for every one dollar that's in this auditable bank account.
Rob: So basically, it's a way to tokenize a dollar and trade a dollar with somebody else.
Zack: Yeah, it's basically you lock up a dollar in a bank somewhere, and it's not on a blockchain, but it is verifiable by regulators in the case of the Coinbase, stablecoin. But for every one stablecoin in existence, like a USDC, which is the new Coinbase stablecoin that they came out with was Circle about two days ago. Every one dollar of the stablecoin there is one dollar back and get in a bank, and that's auditable. Regulators can see it, and that's the gist behind it. But what is in your opinion the reason that these stablecoins are such a big deal? Because a lot of people are brushing it off, like why do we need so many stablecoins?
Rob: I think right now it's most people, when they see things like Tether, it's like, "Oh, this is what people sell into." They'll sell all their Bitcoin for Tether and just hold it there when they think the markets going to dump. Then they'll use that Tether to buy it back, and that's really the only use case we've seen of something like a USD-backed stablecoin before. But now with all these new ones releasing, it begs the question why. Why do we need so many? But I think ... I obviously am somebody who's a proponent of crypto. I think this may not last in the long term if something like the US dollar does hyper-inflate or collapse. But that's a whole nother topic for another time.
Rob: But I think stablecoins can have some real utility in the near future with dApps. So all these different dApps that are launching on EOS. Right now, when the EOS price is relatively stable at five to $6 over the last couple weeks or so, it's okay, and people can play games with that or buy digital items with that. But at some point in the future, there may be dApps that want to dollarize everything in their dApp. There may be something that they sell for $10. They always want to sell it for $10 so you can either send them $10 worth of EOS, or you can just send them 10 of your USDC stablecoins. So I think it'll be dApp integration mostly.
Zack: I actually saw a really good tweet with a video that explains this on our behalf that could do it a lot better.
Rob: Yeah, let's-
Zack: On Money20/20 recently, and Coinbase retweeted the video where he's explaining why he believes stablecoins are going to innovate the industry and take us to the next level.
Speaker 3: We haven't seen a real use case materialized for it other than speculative betting and investing. When are we going to see that killer app? Or when are we going to have that iPhone moment?
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So look, that is a knock that I think all of us and in crypto have to take seriously, which is there's great promise in crypto. And frankly, I would say that when Bitcoin arrived, it had solved one of the hardest problems in computer science, and it did it in such an elegant way that most of us were too stupid to figure out that it was a general-purpose protocol for building an app. It took us a year or two to figure that out.
Speaker 4: So then along comes Ethereum, which is a world, basically, a development platform for cryptocurrency. It's like the Java or .NET of crypto. Now, others have come along. We have those two main use cases, right? We have store of value and build other apps. We have not yet had the breakthrough app that is created utility. I would say that, as we thought about it, finTech before crypto and is specifically a stablecoin is like mobile before the iPhone came along. Now that we've got programmable, real, stable currency, you will see the innovation take off in crypto.
Speaker 4: That's my personal belief, and that's why Coinbase has done this. It'll unlock the ability to create programmatic money applications like we have not seen before, because now, money truly is programmable. That's the difference, and I think that's going to be the iPhone moment for the industry.
Zack: So basically like he said, we all know crypto currency as programmable money, but we also understand the dynamics and the speculative nature and the volatility of crypto. With the stablecoins, you get all of the benefits of programmable money. You could have real-life transactions in a legally binding smart contract where you're just transacting as you would in real life, where you're using dollars for property or dollars for [crosstalk 00:14:04].
Rob: Oh, yeah. I mean, one of the original ... When I first got into Bitcoin in 2013, there were these use cases flying around like, "Imagine you'll one day be able to sell your house, avoid the 14%, seven on each side that the middlemen are taking for that. And instead of having to fill out 100 pages worth of paperwork and sign all these documents, it'll just be a smart contract. Somebody will put in the amount of money, the other person will have the deed to their house. That at that point was talked about as colored coins on Bitcoin, unique tokens.
It's come a long way since then. But now, that's technically possible. If you could do that on etherium, you could do that on EOS if somebody had a token that represented the deed to their house. But there are a couple problems with it. The first problem is a lot of people don't want to accept crypto for their house because it's super volatile, and then they have to sell a couple hundred thousand or million dollars' worth of that crypto, makes it even harder. But beyond that, right now, governments haven't embraced crypto as something actually store the registry of deeds on a blockchain.
But suddenly, you introduce stablecoin, and something gets more familiar, basically, just a digital dollar, and governments may be more open to actually having a crypto-based registry of home ownership or car ownership or whatever it may be. Then like he's saying, all of these use cases open up where suddenly these things we were talking about three or four or five years ago are now actually coming to fruition.
Zack: I think it's going to allow the light bulb to turn on for a much wider group of people, a bigger group of people. It's much easier to understand the concept of a programmable dollar compared to a programmable Ethereum token or a Bitcoin.
Rob: Absolutely. Oh yeah, you miss out on all those questions that come along with it like, well, how does it get its value? Who controls it? And all these different things. People understand what a dollar is for the most part and then to just tokenize. It will definitely be an on-ramp for a lot of people.
Zack: So there are some negatives to the stablecoins. Do you want to talk about the ability to freeze a transaction or freeze a wallet? Which is also a feature in EOS. But typically, it's done whenever there's cryptographic proof that something fraudulent happened. I would assume that would be usually the case for a stablecoin. But then you have the issue of nation-states coming in and stepping in and saying, "Hey, take this guy's assets. He's a criminal."
Rob: Exactly, because the main difference between a freeze, like ECAF has done on EOS is that the person who owned, you know, say the Ethereum account associated with that EOS account in the early days cryptographically proved that they owned it. They proved they had the private keys for it. They proved that was their account and asked somebody to freeze it because their account had been hacked.
Zack: So there's never been an ECAF where it's like, "Freeze this guy's account because he's a criminal and broke a law in my nation-state"?
Rob: No, never, never.
Zack: Yeah, exactly. That's the difference.
Rob: Even beyond that, it still requires all 21 of the active block producers in to freeze an account. If any one of them, even a new one that jumps in that didn't implement that blacklist or that freeze, suddenly, that person is unfrozen. So I think it's important to note the difference here where something like Coinbase with USDC. Theoretically, they, as the central entity, not a bunch of different block producers. But they as a centralized entity could come in and freeze your account, say, "Hey, you can't trade USDC on that sketchy Asian exchange. We don't like that over here, so we're going to block that."
Zack: Speaking of sketchy ... I don't want to say sketchy Asian exchange. They're probably the JIT, but they're probably the most-hated block producer even though they're in the top three. Huobi. So, I read a post by Huobi that was pretty interesting. Because of all these new stablecoins, their exchange is actually ... They have a Huobi stablecoin. I forgot what they call it. But basically, if you send a USD Tether or a USDC from Coinbase or a Gemini dollar, you can send all of these new stablecoins to their exchange, and it does an immediate swap into the Huobi token because-
Rob: Oh, wow.
Zack: The Huobi stablecoins is what all of the price ... the pairs are against.
Zack: So it's like Bitcoin versus their stablecoin. But they accept deposits of all the other stablecoins, and you could withdraw in any of the stablecoins, but it gets converted into a Huobi dollar on the exchange.
Rob: Wow. This is almost like if all of ... Let's say all the 50 states all had dollars, but they all were able to issue it and sort of have their own one. It's almost like a bunch of different people branding their own version of the dollar, which is pretty interesting.
Zack: I mean, if you think about it. All stablecoins are doing is they're tokenizing a database of money that already existed. So, before the Coinbase, stablecoin was released. Whenever you deposited money in the Coinbase, and you buy and sell a cryptocurrency, you're not actually transferring that money at all.
Zack: It was always a programmatic ... It was a number and a ledger and an internal database at Coinbase.
Rob: Yeah, and their centralized database.
Zack: All they did was they opened up their database and decentralized it and got ... They did all the regulating [crosstalk 00:18:29] is huge.
Rob: The main benefit to them as a business of doing this is then a lot of the accounting is automatic. So instead of having to dig through all this stuff that then somebody within the company could forge, they can go to regulator, and say, "Hey, it's all on blockchain. Here's all of our accounting audit. It's just using this link." So I can see how it helps.
Zack: I'm super excited for stablecoins, not because I want to invest in them, but because I believe that to get to that next level of mainstream adoption, we have to do things in a way that the general public can understand. The general public surely understands what a dollar is.
Rob: Yeah, and I agree. I think stablecoins will be an important point of getting us there. I'm still not super excited about them just because it's like, "It's a dollar."
Zack: Yeah, it's hard. I'm more excited about a EOS USD. We talked about this with the pegged stablecoin on EOS, how it could happen, and that would be collateralized in the same way as ... Tether's collateralized by one US dollar to one US Tether. Collateralizing a EOS backed dollar would be done similarly, but it would have to be done at instead of a one to one, like $1 to one Tether. It would be, like they would have a percentage to account for if the price would go down.
Zack: So, one EOS, if it's at $6, it might be able to give you one US dollar that you can collateralize against it.
Rob: Just to real quick before we move on to the next topic to talk about all of the different stablecoins that exist. We have Tether, which is USDT. We have Coinbase and Circle, which is Goldman Sachs with the USDC. We have True USD. We have Havven, which is porting to EOS, which may be an EOS USD. We have things like Bit USD on BitShares, and there are probably a dozen more or so that are so obscure on different platforms that I don't even know that they exist. But just to paint the picture of how many stablecoins there are right now that are all one to one with a dollar.
Rob: It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Will one be the prominent one like Tether, or will it just be a mix of all of them?
Zack: We're going to talk about a new product that came out from shEOS later. We haven't talked about it even though it came out two weeks ago where basically is going to allow Ethereum tokens to transfer to an EOS token.
Zack: We'll get into more detail in a bit, but most of these Tether ... not ... Well, Tether included. Most of these stablecoins are Ethereum tokens.
Zack: So does that mean you'd be able to transfer that stablecoin to EOS, like now? Because the shEOS tool's ready, right?
Rob: Theoretically. I mean, you would need somebody on the EOS end to manage it in the same way as somebody's managing that centralized stablecoin on the Ethereum end. I think what's most interesting, and I tweeted Coinbase when they made this announcement and was like, "This is great and all, but people are going to be really bummed when they're trying to send $20 dollars of USDC to their friend. Don't they realize they have to pay a dollar transaction fee and wait five minutes because it's on Ethereum?"
You basically released a product if you're just talking about exchanging value with other people purely, that use case on Coinbase with the USDC is worse than a use case like Venmo, where I can send money for free, and I can do it instantly. Obviously, there are the use cases coming, but I think once something like this is on EOS, it will then be comparable to the centralized platforms in terms of ease of use and user experience.
Zack: We got to tie all this stablecoin talk back in EOS somehow because this is Everything EOS after all.
Zack: I just want to bring up a point because I've brought up the collateralized EOS USD and how it could potentially happen and things Dan has said. You basically short EOS in a way to create EOS USD and use EOS as collateral. The way Dan explained it was how do you make money off that would be the collateralized USD created from this loan type thing would have a transaction fee on the stablecoin. So it could be minimal. You said you're not going to want to be charged a dollar for a $20 transfer. But if there's like a penny?
Rob: Oh, absolutely.
Zack: Every time you transacted dollars, no matter how big or small the transaction, the fee was always a penny.
Rob: The thing is I think the fee needs to be $0, zero pennies, because if you look at a centralized from like Venmo or PayPal or any of these things. Even my bank has a bank-to-bank thing that I can send instantly. I can send that money effectively instantly. I know it takes longer to settle on the backend, but I can send it what is effectively instantly for a $0 fee. The only way a decentralized platform like an EOS stablecoin or something is going to compete with that is if it's the same, if not better user experience, and part of that is having the same fee structure, which is zero fees.
Zack: You got to think bigger, Rob, bigger. If you're going to use US dollars as your store of value, you want to potentially have a way to earn money off of that savings. From what I understand the way Dan was explaining it with this fee, and he didn't give a number. I'm just going to say a penny. Imagine if every transaction was a penny. It's small enough that most people aren't going to care. But imagine if that penny, every time that all of those pennies get lumped into a big pile in a smart contract, and all those fees get redistributed to whoever actually owns those EOS USD stablecoins. So it's a way of earning interest on your stablecoin that you have saved.
Rob: I think it's a cool idea. But I think there may be a way to still earn interest on the stablecoin while still having zero fees.
Zack: I'm open to anything, anyway to make money off of the stable-
Rob: I'm just a big-
Zack: I don't know how to make money off of stablecoins. But the example I gave is the only thing I've ever heard of, I don't know if that's actually going to happen. But it is one potential way that you can create an interest-like program, programmatically on a stablecoin.
Rob: Yeah, the only way I could think you're making money on a stablecoin now is speculating when Tether comes off its peg and goes back up, or if you're one of the market makers that are keeping these things at a dollar.
Zack: This all ties into mainstream adoption. So you had an interesting conversation on Twitter recently. It kind of ties into last week where we gave the Peter Thiel example and showed the video of how he used email to advance mainstream adoption of PayPal. So why don't you introduce this topic?
Rob: Yeah, so somebody that I follow on Twitter, his name is AusCryptoTim. AUS as in Australia Crypto Tim. Put in an interesting tweet thread recently. He said, "An EOS account interface should look like an email inbox," and I tweeted him. I was like, "This is interesting. Why email?" He responded, "Because transactions are just information like email. It would aid in mass adoption as every person is familiar with email. Just imagine you clicked or create a transaction. Just like sending an email, you type an address and you click Send. You could sort the types of transactions too. EOS transactions in one folder, other coins in another, and you have a spam folder or a promo folder for all the advertisements we get," which happens a lot on EOS right now.
People figured out how to send messages to every single EOS account for free. So they're doing that. That goes in your spam. Then he's saying, "The text function could be furthered so you could message someone with two EOS, say, 'Thanks for buying dinner.'" But to his point, when you start thinking about this, the possibilities start to grow and start to be limitless. But it's an interesting concept, and it piqued my interest because of that Peter Thiel comparison where PayPal had this problem of, "Oh, nobody has a PayPal account."
So what they did was they just essentially linked it to email and said, "Oh, if you have an email account, if your friend has one, you can send them money directly to their email. They'll get an email. They log in and claim it." This could be similar but from a user experience perspective and user interface perspective rather than actually tying it to somebody's email. So you can imagine you're new to EOS. You download a mobile wallet for the first time. Looks like an email account. You have very simple things: Send, receive, spam.
I love the idea of different folders and especially the spam folder. I think that's great. But a pretty cool concept and something that I think we'll see more of whereas concepts in crypto, people are constantly trying to simplify down to existing concepts people understand, and I think this is a great example of that. If you make an EOS account up there, maybe consider making it look like an email inbox. That'd be pretty cool.
Zack: I mean, it makes sense because we all get the spammed messages you mentioned where people will send a little bit of EOS dust.
Rob: Well, even now, they don't have to send any EOS.
Zack: How have they been doing that? I guess I have noticed that.
Rob: People have built contracts with some kind of message function that essentially will just send a message to every US account. It's just a built-in function. So rather than having to send a memo alongside a 0.001 transaction, they're getting filtered out based on the amount and then nobody sees it. They just figured out how to send a message for free. That's pretty crazy.
Zack: So it's cluttering up every everyone's block explores. Most people have experienced with ether skin, but on Ethereum, you're not going to get spam because people are paying a couple cents to a dollar for every transaction.
Rob: Right, exactly.
Zack: But on EOS, we're just getting hammered. So you think about your email inbox, and with Gmail for example, they already have a programmatic way of filtering your email into your promos or your social folders. But then you could also set your own filters. So you could filter out specific words or specific email address that you might get email from. You think about that with a block explorer, and you can do the same thing, like you could have a community spam control in a way. If an account's spamming, you just delegate it. You could hit a button that says, "I think this is spam."
Zack: Then if enough people click that, then whatever block explorer you're on, every user interface, every front end could have different rules to say, "Okay, if 100 people say this is spam, we're going to stop showing it and put it in your spam folder." Then another front end might say, "Okay, let's set the threshold at 1,000." But that's the beauty of using the blockchain as your database. It's kind of like with Steem where there's busy.org, and then there's steemit.com, and they're both working off of the same database of messages, but they have different rules for filtering and how they display those messages on your timeline, which ones show up at the top.
Zack: There's all kinds of different rules on the front ends, and that's what decentralization is going to allow is everyone's working off the same data set, and the race to be number one is going to be who has the best front end and UI.
Zack: The best user-friendly interface.
Rob: Yeah, that's a great point. I like that a lot.
Zack: And to add to that, whenever you mention who the tweet was, his name's Crypto Tim. He also has his own YouTube channel, and he made a video this morning.
Rob: Oh, nice.
Zack: He talked about your conversation with him on Twitter.
Rob: That's awesome. So there should be a link. I don't know if it'll be in this corner or this corner, but you'll see a link here.
Zack: One of the corners. Then there will be a link in the description, so don't stop the video yet. Wait till the end.
Rob: Yeah, that's great.
Zack: So yeah, I'm pretty excited. Anything that could advance user experience and make interacting with cryptocurrency and blockchain more like what people are used to today? I think that's the end goal.
Rob: Definitely. So moving on from that, there's been some interesting developments as far as the actual EOS upgrades go. This is the core EOS code that runs the blockchain, powers how everything works. Block.one, the company behind EOS that did that massive ICO last year, releases software updates every week or so. Last week, we got another minor update with some bug fixes and some different developer improvements. But beyond that, we usually get a big update every few weeks, every few months, and it looks like our next big update might be coming soon. You want to explain that?
Zack: Yeah, so, a lot of people were nervous about this because Dan came in the Telegram, and let me pull up the conversation. He was talking about some new improvements, and he said, "We're working on an EOS improvement proposal for the first hard fork."
Rob: Oh, no. Everybody freak out.
Zack: Oh, shoot.
Zack: Hard fork.
Zack: Whenever people hear hard fork, they think that there's some sort of disagreement or discontent, and that's because for most people, the only hard forks that they know are from the DAO hack or Ethereum Classic split from Ethereum. Then last year on August, whenever SegWit was implemented, and Bitcoin cash was created and split from Bitcoin. So that's what most people think about a hard fork, and that's because you have two contentious forks with miners supporting both sides of the fork.
Zack: So you think Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin had the same history prior to their hard fork and then after their hard fork, they split with the same history, but there was a group of miners supporting Bitcoin cash and a group of miners supporting Bitcoin Core Legacy, whatever you want to call it. But with this EOS hard fork, all of the improvements are going to be to speed up the network and to improve it. So Dan said, "We will probably upgrade single-thread intern to compile wasm first. That will likely get another 2X improvement." We just had a 2X improvement from something that didn't require-
Rob: We actually had two previous 2X improvements. One was changing that variable that we talked about last week in the code. The one before that was upgrading standard wasm to wabbit, which is just a new to process transactions. That was already two times faster, so 2X, 2X. Now, all of these improvements, going to get another 2X improvement on the process. It's pretty crazy.
Zack: Then he said they're also investigating chainbase 2.0, which I don't know what chainbase 2.0, which I don't know what chainbase 2.0 is, but I'm sure it's really good. We implemented with faster data access and better performance with virtual memory. Then Bart Wyatt, who's a developer at Block.one. He seems like he's one of the more active ones. He's been there for a long time. He chimed in and said, "With paged memory, enabling things like SSD, backed databases," which SSD's a lot faster than your typical hardware.
Rob: Yeah, the way I understand it right now is that if you have something that you want stored that your application can pull from the chain at any time, you have to save it in RAM on EOS, which is why RAM gets so expensive. Obviously, prices have come down and are continuing to decline. But if you could store the majority of the data you need rather than putting it on a standard hard drive that has a physical thing that has to go in and read the disk, you can put it on an SSD, flash disk and suddenly, let's say half of the things you used to need for RAM, you can now store an SSD instead of RAM, and cost for developers will go down because of that.
Zack: You think about that with just a laptop. So you could buy an SSD hard drive or your standard disk-based hard drive, and your SSD is just so much faster because it's almost as fast as RAM, just like you said.
Rob: Exactly because it's just flash storage, and there's no physical parts that are moving around.
Zack: I've been on a flash storage for SSD hard drives for the last two years. I could not-
Zack: ... go back.
Rob: Oh no, there's no way.
Zack: Oh my God. It's more quiet. It's faster.
Rob: When you're on a normal hard drive, and it gets filled up. As the little reader or whatever it is that goes out and out on the actual disk, it takes longer and longer to load files, and it just-
Zack: It's like a freaking record.
Rob: Yeah, it's bad.
Zack: So what we're getting to is this is going to be an awesome improvement.
Rob: Oh, absolutely.
Zack: It's all speed-based things. So there's nothing contentious about it. It's not like with Bitcoin where someone wanted the one megabyte blocks and someone wanted two megabyte blocks. So they both split up did their own thing.
Rob: I know. We all want this thing to scale even further than it already has. Absolutely.
Zack: So what's going to happen is you're going to split ... The hard fork's going to happen. Everyone's going to implement the software, and everyone ... All of the top 21 block producers at that time are going to implement the new code, and everything's going to ... There's going to be one chain because nobody's going to support the sloth chain. Absolutely. The original EOS chains is going to die on the spot because nobody in the right mind is going to support it, and everyone will still have their same tokens that they had.
Zack: The end user isn't even going to realize there was a hard fork.
Rob: Yeah, if you're out there freaking out going, "Oh my God. What do I need to do?"
Zack: You just do nothing.
Rob: Yeah, do nothing, and you probably even notice that this even happened.
Zack: So there is a pretty good explanation of the hard fork. On Reddit, I'll put the link in the description. But they explained how all of the block producers use their APIs to power a lot of the front ends integrating with the blockchain. So the Scatter Wallet and everything, they'll just swap to the new chain instantly. That's why the users aren't even going to-
Rob: Exactly. Nobody who's building an app and using a current API should have to really do anything. It should be on BP, the block producers to upgrade.
Zack: So even a scatter won't have to do anything with developers?
Rob: Right. So when we upgrade api.cypherglass.com, which is one of our APIs to the new ... When it's suddenly on the new chain, all of the dApps and all of the users that have their wallets synced up with API. That's cypherglass.com. We'll, boom, instantly, be switched over to the new chain. There shouldn't ... I don't know. Maybe there will be some downtime from this. But I doubt it just based on the way upgrades have gone in the past.
Zack: So it's just going to lower CPU cost.
Zack: I don't know if it'll make RAM more efficiently. We don't know all of the improvements they're making. We just know about three or four lines that Dan mentioned in Telegram.
Rob: This is just the tease. I imagine when he comes out with that full release list, like we saw with the big 1.0 release and see all the cool stuff. I'm excited.
Zack: So Dan also dropped another doozy in the same channel. It's in the US main channel on October 20. That's when all of this conversation happened. Someone named Henry Boulgakov. He asked, "Dan, REX and staking?" Dan actually responded. People ask Dan questions all the time.
Rob: He just ignores it.
Zack: He decides what to respond to, and he said, "The finishing touches are being done now. Then up to the community." I thought that was interesting because after that, US New York put out an interesting blog post about some of the controversy around implementing the REX, if it's ready. So, for those who aren't familiar with the REXs, it's a proposal that Dan Larimer, the CTO of Block.one made a few months ago for a resource change. What this would allow you to do is it would kind of work like Chintai, if you're familiar with that, where if you have EOS tokens, you have rights to all of the bandwidth on the EOS network based on how many tokens you hold.
But if you're just holding the tokens, and you're not actually transacting on the mainnet, you have computation that you're not using. So you could actually lease that out to people who want it at a fraction of the cost of buying EOS tokens. What the REX will allow you to do is you'll be able to stake your unused EOS tokens to the resource exchange or the REX. Then that's going to put your computation in a big pool that will allow dApp developers and applications running on years to pay for a rental of the EOS in the REX. So a fraction of a penny per transaction.
Then all of those fees are going to go into a REX fund. Then in addition to that, the network is also already collecting fees. So we have the RAM trading fees. If you're buying or selling RAM on the RAM market, there's a half a percent trading fee for the buyer and a half a percent for the seller.
Rob: Yeah, and that's just to limit speculators and keep the price down.
Zack: I know there's an account I can look at to see the total of that.
Rob: Let's just [crosstalk 00:36:21].
Zack: Yeah, if you go to eosio.ramfee on any block explorer, you have to type in the dot. So the RAM account currently has almost two million EOS in it.
Zack: So these are just fees accumulated by the network, and they're sitting in account that no one has access to, so $10.5 million dollars. This was all accumulated over the course of since what? Like early June when the mainnet launched.
Zack: Then the other fees that are being accumulated are from the EOS name auctions. Since you just did a video on the US name auction ... Well, similar to the EOS auctions.
Rob: Similar, yeah.
Zack: Why don't you explain what the EOS name auction is?
Rob: So right now, if you have an account on EOS, you're required to have it be exactly 12 characters. There's a lot of cool names you can make with that. Most people are fine with that. But if you want something more custom that's less than 12 characters, you actually have to buy that, and it's auction style. So one name is auctioned off every day. I think the top bid is for Z. If somebody wants the account name Z ... But what's cool about these individual accounts is then you can make sub-account names. We put out a cool video on the Cypherglass YouTube channel.
Just this week, we talked about how to register a .X name. So what happened basically was somebody went out. They bought X. Just the account name X. But then because EOS allows you to create an issue sub-account spaces, sub-name spaces as they call them. You could have ZackGall.X or Poetry.X. Whatever name you wanted, you could make because of it. But when people go out and they buy that name X or bid on any other name, all of those fees, all of that EOS goes into eosio.names account, which right now is about three-quarters of a million EOS.
So another $4 million sitting there that would also be distributed to people who are using REX, which is pretty crazy.
Zack: All right. So right now, those are the main ways that fees are accumulated. We have the eosio.names, the eosio.ramfees, and then the REX itself by selling the computation or leasing it out to people who want the extra computation power but don't want to own the tokens to get-
Zack: So all of that's going to ... It's going to create a pool of funds that are going to be redistributed to the EOS token holders who actually have their EOS tokens staked into the REX.
Zack: So think of it like this. If you have 100 extra EOS tokens that you want to stake into the REX, you stake them to the REX. Then to do that, you also have to vote for a minimum of 21 block producers. You're forced to vote, and then you stake into the REX. Then in exchange, you get REX tokens. So I stake 100 EOS tokens, and I get 100 REX tokens in exchange. Then I don't know if there's a minimum time or not, but whenever I eventually want to-
Rob: I think it's 30 days.
Zack: So 30 [crosstalk 00:39:00]?
Rob: Yeah, I think you have to commit to stay for at least 30 days-
Rob: ... which is pretty crazy.
Zack: So what would happen is let's say on November 1st, I staked those 100 EOS into the REX, and I get back 100 REX tokens. Those Rex tokens are non-transferable back into the Rex for 30 days. Then on the 30th day, if I want to take my profits, I would send my REX tokens back to the REX, and then in exchange I'll get all 100 EOS tokens back plus my percentage of the profits from the last 30 days made in the REX.
Rob: Exactly, for however long you had them.
Zack: I don't know how many are actually going to be in the REX. Let's say there was only a thousand tokens staked and a hundred of them are mine. That would mean I would be rewarded 10% of all of the fees accumulated in the entire pool of funds. So that's really unique, and it separates the token price from the cost of transacting and actually using the EOS mainnet.
Rob: That was a really good ... That's probably the best explanation I've heard of REX so far in terms of how you would get the fees and the profit. That was really simple. That was good.
Zack: So that's why we're excited about the REX because it allows you to earn interest essentially on your EOS tokens by doing nothing different than you're already doing. If you're already voting and you're already staking your tokens, but you're not using all of your CPU every day, then why not stake them into the REX? You're going to make money off of it, and you're going to make it cheaper for other people who do need that computation to transact.
Rob: Absolutely. Well, and this should basically be like Chintai on steroids. So Chintai is that leasing platform that you mentioned. But the problem that a lot of dApps are hitting right now, I was talking for example in the BetDice Telegram the other day, and they were saying, "Oh, we need to lease more CPU." This was before the issues were fixed. But there's not enough liquidity on Chintai. They're just one enough. They could maybe get another 100,000 EOS stake to them, but they really needed much, much more.
So when something like this comes out, suddenly, you have a pool of if all the current EOS staked 550 million EOS available for developers, and it's going to get a lot cheaper, a lot easier a lot more accessible for developers to come in and lease the stuff that they need.
Zack: So let's get into the controversy of this-
Zack: ... because we talked about the ... So, right now, it's just like Chintai where it comes to the leasing and the renting of the tokens. But the things that make this really, really valuable is putting in those RAM trading fees and then the name auction fees. Then if there's a BitShares 3.0 on EOS, eventually, and it won't be called that. But system contract level-
Rob: Oh, yeah, you can do [crosstalk 00:41:30]-
Zack: ... bet, style, exchange, those trading fees might potentially go into the REX.
Rob: Yeah, and something, an important differentiation between REX and Chintai is that with Chintai, you're sending your tokens away to a smart contract. When you do that, you lose all of your voting power. You lose your rights for it, and then they're basically voting those tokens for you, which is ... It's a misalignment of incentives. But with REX, in addition to getting paid out those fees for having your token staked, even if somebody's not leasing them, you're still getting those network fees. You also maintain control of the voting power of your tokens, which I think is huge and something very necessary, especially for people that have a significant amount of EOS.
Zack: So, EOS New York put out an interesting blog post about this, because it's setting a precedent. So everyone wants the REX, and I have not met a single person who's like, "I hate the REX. I do not want to make money with my EOS tokens."
Rob: Yeah, I haven't either.
Zack: "I don't want to give away my computation. I'm not using ... "
Rob: Right. "I don't want to make it easier for devs to build."
Zack: There's not a single person who's against it. In its full form with the RAM trading fees and the EOS name auctions and everything else, I have no doubt that the entire community would support it and block producers could implement it. But messing with the network fees or the network funds, like the RAM trading fees and the name auctions. It's setting a bad precedent if the block producers are able to make a decision on how those monies are being distributed and used.
Zack: So we're still waiting for referendum. But basically, referendum will allow the token holders to vote on what they want the block producers to implement as far as-
Zack: ... new features or new proposals. What they recommended is that we implement the REX without the RAM trading fees and without the name auction fees. The block producers scan implement that with little pushback. I don't think anyone would really see an issue with it. But then they proposed that we wait until referendum to implement the movement of network funds, the name trading fees, or name auction fees and then the RAM trading fees.
Rob: It makes an incredible amount of sense.
Zack: The thing that makes this really easy is that Dan Larimer qualified that with the REX turning on and off those extra fees is just literally changing a variable like a switch.
Rob: Like zero, one.
Zack: Yeah, so it's so easy to implement the REX without those features. Then whenever the community votes, eventually, when the referendum's ready to implement those network fees into the REX, it's just changing that zero to a one, essentially.
Rob: Yeah, and I think that's smart and definitely the right way to go about it. Props to EOS New York for writing this very, very detailed article, if you look it over.
Zack: Go Kevin Rose.
Rob: They're doing a good job. But beyond that I think just talking about the precedent here, and that's why even if everybody already agrees, hey, go ahead and switch on those network fees. It's bad precedent if block producer just go in and take millions of dollars, which at that point might be tens of millions of dollars and just direct it somewhere else. So it is very important that all the token holders agree. We have a real referendum just to set the precedent that BPs can't do this on their own.
Zack: Yeah, because could you imagine if BPs without a referendum and like, "We're going to increase our pay to 2%"?
Rob: Right, exactly.
Zack: It'd be unheard of. It's like increasing your own salary. Even though they'd be moving these fees to the REX, which everyone agrees on, it's just a bad precedent.
Zack: We don't need to do it because we know referendum is so close.
Rob: Oh, yeah.
Zack: I'm waiting for months for this thing.
Rob: I'm excited to see what happens with the referendum when we get to vote on the Constitution on new features, on all kinds of stuff. There may even be new ... Let's call them new dApps or new use cases, new things that we could vote on that right now, we can't even come up with that then we'll go, "Oh, wow. We could use the referendum for this," and I think it's going to open up all these new use cases that are really engaging with all the token holders, which is awesome.
Zack: I thought it was interesting too with the actual smart contract being used for the referendum. It could actually ... it's very malleable and reusable for other things. So if you wanted to have a vote on the EOS mainnet within just the people in your office to vote on what type of pizza you want to order for lunch. You could set up any type of voting within any group of people using the same smart contract.
Rob: Oh, that's awesome.
Zack: So it's not just network-wide votes. I mean, that's what it's mostly going to be used for. But other people can take this, the source code, and this library and make it do other things that are interesting.
Rob: Wow. I could imagine people ... Let's say Everipedia who has all these different token holders, hundreds of thousands of people. They can go and do a referendum amongst their token holders for new features or new additions or whatever the case may be. So that should open up a lot of possibilities.
Zack: I think we went really long on the stablecoins. We got to ...
Rob: Yeah, we really did.
Zack: We got to talk about this one though, because, one, we already teased it at the beginning, and two, we missed over it two weeks ago whenever it was released.
Rob: Yeah, so ever since that EOS was even announced, there were all these plans. "How can we make it easy to port Ethereum tokens over to EOS and just allow people to migrate? The platform's better. It's easier to use. It's cheaper for developers. How do we get them over here?" Everipedia for the longest time was working on this token relay that would allow Ethereum developers to easily port their tokens, boom, over to EOS. Months and months came and went. Never really happened. So, what ended up happening was shEOS, which is another great block producer candidate, actually released their own token relay ahead of Everipedia. So it looks like they won't be working on that anymore.
Zack: Its co-founder is Brock Pierce's wife, isn't it?
Rob: Yeah, Crystal Rose. There are a bunch of other great ... I believe their entire team's women, hence the name shEOS. But a bunch of great women from the crypto industry who have done a lot ... codex protocols in there, a lot of different people. But anyway, they've come out with what they're calling the EOS21 protocol, and they're going to have this token portal where anybody, if you have an etherium token, if you as a developer want to bring that over to EOS, you can easily set up a portal through which people send their Ethereum tokens. And boom, on the other end, they get their EOS token. So, pretty cool to see.
Zack: I think it's cool they call it teleportation.
Zack: Teleport your tokens from Ethereum to EOS. There's actually a meme from the BlockSmith, EOS meme contest. I'll throw up the meme. It was a Rick and Morty-themed-
Rob: Oh, nice.
Zack: ... teleportation meme. Then speaking of memes, every time I make a meme, I got to share it on the show because I like to share the love. This is this week's entry for the EOS meme contest.
Zack: My Lion King theme, the EOS king.
Rob: Oh, beautiful.
Zack: It actually got me a Brock Pierce follow back on Twitter.
Rob: Yeah, I saw he retweeted and follow you. Congratulations.
Zack: Yeah, thank you.
Rob: I mean, to his defense, I would've followed you and retweeted that too because it looked like his face was meant for that, like the same style and everything. It was cool.
Zack: Dude, I'm so nervous to meet Dan in San Francisco because he's going to be like, "You're the guy that keeps making memes about me."
Rob: "Oh, you're that meme guy, aren't you?"
Zack: "I love you, Dan. We love your technology."
Rob: I feel like in this day and age, having people make memes about you give you some more-
Zack: That's how you know you made it, man.
Rob: You get more memetic energy. You move up. Everything's good, so they don't mind.
Zack: All right. So let's get through ... I guess we could talk about shEOS and EOS21 a little bit more. But there's already been a lot of good videos about and a lot of good readings.
Rob: The main awesome thing that's going to happen from this, the one big takeaway is now it's much, much easier for Ethereum developers to port over to EOS, and we're going to see a lot of people using this in the near future and probably the long term as well.
Zack: I think the studio's kicking us out. The light already turned off here over in the dark over here. It looks like under the [inaudible 00:48:44] in the shadows.
Rob: That's all right.
Zack: Let's get some fun reminders. Remind people about those damn pumpkins.
Rob: So, real quick. You're out there. You're carving a pumpkin. You want to win up to 200 EOS first prize, 100 EOS second, 50 EOS third prize. Go out. Carve an EOS-themed pumpkin. Tweet it to @CypherglassBP, with the hashtag #HallowEOS. We'll pull up the little contest thing here, and you could win this money. So go out and do it. It's been a fun time, and it's been awesome to see all the submissions come in.
Zack: If you're on the fence about San Francisco, please make-
Rob: Do it.
Zack: ... your way out there. Do it if you live in a dry ... especially if you live in driving distance.
Zack: There's so many tech people in Silicon Valley, San Diego, all these drivable within two or three hours. You got to come out there. Even if you don't want to compete, come out the scaling blockchain on Monday. Come hang out.
Zack: We got like-minded people. I'm mostly excited about the conversations and people more than the hackathon itself, more than the conference itself. I just want to be around the people. It wouldn't matter if it's in a McDonald's parking lot.
Rob: I love that.
Zack: I would be there.
Rob: You should tweet Block.one and say, "Hey, next venue for the global final, McDonald's parking lot."
Zack: [crosstalk 00:49:41] house.
Rob: Yeah, there we go. No, I totally agree. The community really is about the people that are in the community because without the people, it would be nothing. So it's going to be awesome to meet everybody there, and of course, hopefully, meet Dan.
Zack: I hope so. Anything else you want to throw in?
Rob: I think that's it. Oh, next week, actually, next week you're going to want to watch on video.
Zack: Ooh, special edition.
Rob: We have a very special edition, HallowEOS episode coming out next Halloween. Be ready for it. Be ready on YouTube watching that video version. It should be pretty fun.
Zack: Oh yeah. All right, so that's a nice teaser to finish this off. You guys can guess the costumes we'll be wearing.
Zack: So I think that's it for this week. Once again, I'm Zack Gall.
Rob: I'm Rob Finch.
Zack: And this is Everything EOS.